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R-Hop isn’t working

7K views 40 replies 10 participants last post by  Guges Mk3 
#1 ·
Hi, I have two Tippmann Recon AEGs, one I upgraded with a ZCI 6.02 x 363mm inner barrel, an elvish tac r-hop patch, elvish tac s-nub, and a ProWin hop-up chamber, patch was glued with Loctite super glue gel control. The second is almost stock. All that it has is a Modify Baton Ryusoku flat hop nub and I flat hoped the bucking. Both where shooting 0.28g bb. When testing the R-hoped one I shot 10 rounds at ~150 and only hit once, so I repeated it and shot 10 more rounds and hit the cardboard one more time. When I tested the second one with the flat hop at ~150 I hit the target 9 out of 10 times with a 14 inch grouping… So what did I do wrong? What do I need to try to fix it? Thank you for your time.
and the picture isn't working... :(

 
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#2 · (Edited)
To clarify is this a accuracy issue or feeding issue?

What bbs are you using?

Your barrel choice isn't the best unfortunately. Zci struggle to make perfectly straight barrels. The o ring cutout in the front tip of the barrel causes a slight deformity inside the tip of the outer barrel, causing accuracy issues.

A laylax barrel would have been better. Pdi and higher end lambdas are alright too.
After that, lapping would be the only way to get better accuracy.
 
#6 ·
To clarify is this a accuracy issue or feeding issue?

What bbs are you using?

Your barrel choice isn't the best unfortunately. Zci struggle to make perfectly straight barrels. The o ring cutout in the front tip of the barrel causes a slight deformity inside the tip of the outer barrel, causing accuracy issues.

A laylax barrel would have been better. Pdi and higher end lambdas are alright too.
After that, lapping would be the only way to get better accuracy.
It is an accuracy issue, I'm using EMG bio 0.28g bbs (only because when I bought them I could not find Elite Force bbs), and I chose the ZCI because I had herd good things about their barrels as well as they were the cheapest "upgrade" barrel that I could find.
 
#3 ·
And this is why I don't recommend R-Hop. It is often finicky, limits ammo selection and it has to be perfect for it to consistently work...

Versus a simpler ML setup that give you 90% of R-Hop Capability, flexibility in ammo and easy to tweek to get it to work consistently.
 
#5 ·
I am not so much blaming, rather the R-Hop unit is not new player friendly. You really need to know how the "system" works. And if you have no clue...you can't trouble shoot it.
 
#9 ·
For the ML packing to work (AKA, Rubber/Bucking...etc) it hs to seat on the barrel window. Any misalignment and it will distort the opening to prevent seating of the bb.
 
#11 · (Edited)
I had an rhop done for me by a reputable custom builder, I won't mention names but he is highly regarded and been mentioned in a positive light on this site. The first one would constantly over hop everything. I sent it back to him and he said he had to redo it because I left the hop down after a game and it deformed the patch, I needed to back it all the way off after each day of play...he fixed it and sent it back.......lonex hop, lapped and polished zci barrel, rhop...all as one drop in unit...all in all...I'm not impressed......I get the same results or better with a flat hopped G&G green, lonex hop, and zci barrel....I use almost exclusively G&G .28 and .32 bio BB's...so maybe I would only be seeing benefits if I use a heavier weight, or if I wanted to lob the .32s....anyway, I think I'll stick to flat hopping, I can do it myself. Of course my experience could all be user error.

Note: This post isn't knocking the gentleman who did my r-hop. I'm not implying he did anything wrong, his work appears really good. This is just my experience with an r-hop. I consider him reputable and I still do business with him.
 
#13 ·
@Pharaoh You should ask him what material was used for the patch. If its overhopping even when hop is "off", that means the patch is protruding into the hop window still. I can definitely see how leaving the hop turned on for long periods of time could cause some materials to stay protruding into the window even if the patch was set perfectly on initial install. I imagine he didn't use silicone, or perhaps the glue came loose.

@Nitren Installing an Rhop patch is not exactly simple. It takes some trial and error learning how to set it. Basically, you need to make sure the patch fills the whole window as perfectly as possible and absolutely nothing can protrude into the barrel. No glue. No patch material. It is highly advisable to find some sort of tube or rod or something you can safely insert into the barrel without damaging it. Outer diameter of this tool should be as close to the inner diameter of the barrel as possible. I think 6mm silicone tubing from mcmaster carr should do the trick. I think there's also rhop tool kits available on shapeways. I'm about to get into rhopping myself after lots of research and discussion with other guys who've been doing it for awhile. Theoretically, it is the "best" hop up solution.

Using Sugru has been a somewhat popular method only because its much easier to work with, and Sugru's abrasion resistance is very low such that any protruding material just gets worn away after some use and the patch "breaks in", but it also doesn't last very long because of this. Having a break-in period on anything can be a sign that it wasn't made to fit perfectly in the first place. I'm not certain of the chemical resistance properties with Sugru, like if it would get damaged from cleaning the barrel with alcohol or swell up from using silicone oil. Silicone patch will definitely resist these chemicals. I've definitely swelled up a guy's rhop patch when cleaning. I'll be getting that one back soon to correct it and I'll try to figure out what material it was.
 
#14 ·
@Pharaoh You should ask him what material was used for the patch. If its overhopping even when hop is "off", that means the patch is protruding into the hop window still. I can definitely see how leaving the hop turned on for long periods of time could cause some materials to stay protruding into the window even if the patch was set perfectly on initial install. I imagine he didn't use silicone, or perhaps the glue came loose.
Yes, the patch was protruding into the window still with the hop all the way "off". I didn't realize at the time that I needed to back off the hop every day after usage. I'm not sure what material he used. It functions now. I just haven't seen any performance gain over my flat hopped ones. Yes, I can get more hop if needed, but if I'm not currently shooting heavier than .32s and a flat hop does fine with those then I'm not sure the benefits. Also, no real benefit that I've seen in terms of groupings either over my flat hops.
 
#19 ·
I had bought a ML macaron and the lips where to short, thus not able to hold the bb.
What do you mean it wasn't able to hold the BB? And was it a "Macaron" or Super Macaron? The "Macaron", as it's now referred to by some retailers, is not actually a Macaron. Its original name was Monster and it's a much older design. I'm not sure if those are still in production but I think the name was changed specifically to confuse consumers so they might buy overstock of the old model. The Super Macaron and other newer models use a different material.
But what your saying is that ML buckings are to big in to fit in/on some barrels/hop-up units?
Correct. At least with Super Macaron and MR. Hop models. Many times you have to force the hop chamber to line up with the notches on the barrel. Sometimes it will be fine, other times the rubber bulges into the chamber too much and prevents BBs from being pushed past the feed lips.
 
#21 · (Edited)
@Nitren That is indeed a ML Monster packing, denoted by the 4 lines. Super macaron is a single wavy line, MR is a wavy line plus a raised dot. I don't much experience with the Monster so I couldn't tell you if that's a common problem or not. I've never seen that issue with the newer ML packings. I've been quite a fan of them, especially the new 2021 silicone models, but I'm also a fan of the Begadi packings, especially the longer contact patch models.
 
#22 ·
Also, one thing you must do for Airsoft in the USA.

Take American Consumerism and throw it out the window. It does not apply in Airsoft.

Packing Lip sizes have no standard. This has been true for over 15 years. This has been more prevalent over the last 8 years as regional manufacturing variances continue to diverge more severely.

I have old pictures where I calipered diameters of packings and the range from 5.17 to 5.98mm. Then throw on top the variances and bbs and if you put a small bore 5.93mm into the mix and it will do what you see in your video.

It's a sport of knowing the details not and nothing is as simplistic as it could be and should be...
 
#23 ·
I’ve been using Rhopped barrels for a short time. I’ve only used them, so far, with .32-.40 gram weights. The barrels work great for me. Now I’ve read in a few places that you don’t want to use lighter weight bbs in R hops. So if the OP was using .28 and not seeing a positive effect; should he have tried a heavier bb first?

I’m not a doctor, but play one on TV…….
 
#24 ·
Additional details would have been helpful for we are just making suppositions.

When he cited accuracy issues...he didn't say if they were hitting the ground before the target or skying over the target.

Plus "150" is not "long" range. Most stock AEG's can hit 50 yards out of the box. With R-Hop, a heavy bb (.28+) he should be ranging out to 70+ yards.
 
#25 ·
A laylax barrel would have been better. Pdi and higher end lambdas are alright too.
The reason that I went with ZCI is because I am on a budget and can't drop $60/$100 on a barrel, and they were the cheapest "upgrade" barrel that I could find. I got what I paid for. But from what I've read the MadBull Black Python 6.03 is a good barrel (yes it won't be as good as a $60 Laylax, $75 Lambda, or a $100 PDI) but when compared to a stock brass barrel wouldn't they perform better (tighter groupings, and slightly improved range)? Also the barrel would be flat hopped not r hopped.
 
#26 ·
(Snip).. but when compared to a stock brass barrel wouldn't they perform better (tighter groupings, and slightly improved range)? (snip)
Why would you surmise that would be consistently, true?

Shoot the wrong bb and your accuracy and range will decrease.

This is due to barrel turbulence and the plunger effect.

In Asia all the "experienced" players don't use 6.03mm and definitely don't use 6.01mm anymore. Tightest they go is 6.05mm and many run stock 6.08mm
 
#28 ·
From what I have seen. A fresh clean polished 6.08 or 6.05 brass barrel is more accurate than a stock stainless 6.01-6.03 tight bore.
However a lapped or well polished stainless tight bore will be consistently more accurate because it doesn't corrode rapidly like a brass barrel.
But wide bore orga barrels will always be the most accurate even though they are brass. Stainless also wears slower. So a polish/lap will last much much longer.

Another issue is stainless barrels are harder to make. The tooling tends to wear out faster leading to defects inside the bore, such as ripples.

The pdi and lambda have more ripples in them than most brass barrels.
Every time the machine presses the tube down to the barrel specs there's basically a floated center rod that shapes the bore, if the rod isn't perfect it will cause ripples inside the bore.

For stainless barrels laylax is top when it comes to bore consistency in my experience.
I lap barrels, even the best lapping will not get ripples out of a pdi or higher end lambda. They are the same oem too.

I'm incredibly OCD. I cut my bbs in half to make sure they are solid when I get a new bag, i make sure my r and flat hops are perfectly level, and my barrels are all lapped and perfectly straight with no wiggle. Under those conditions a tighter bore will preform better than a stock brass barrel. The wider bore tolerates other inconsistencies in stock setups better than let's say a 6.01 would.

Even then if I had an hpa setup id run a orga barrel with a light polish with a r hop. I just run tighter bores to gain back some fps in a aeg.

Stay away from any barrel that has o ring cutouts up front. They deform the bore even on the inside causing bb residue to build up, this includes zci barrels and some of laylax speciality barrels. Zci barrels also aren't very straight.


Most of everything I've mentioned is overkill to the average player trying to hit another player within 50 yards. But if you want tight groupings up to the end of your possible range, it's going to take some serious tinkering, of which some here will say, isn't really worth the effort.
 
#29 · (Edited)
Upgrade is a subjective term.

I sure you will have noticed this, but if not, I will write this again. There are no Standards in Airsoft. You can take a stick of string cheese, bore out a rough 6mm hole and sell it as an upgrade barrel and they wouldn't be wrong.

And yes, thousand have "bought" upgrade barrels and thousand have been fleeced for buying a stock part in new packaging at 2500% markup because they just didn't know better. I was once one of these newbs too and 1000 lemmings running off a cliff is still 1000 lemmings falling to their deaths. Or in our case, 1000 players who are $30.00 lighter in their pockets.

So, yes most barrels are "not" upgrades and are only laterals at best.

American Consumerism does not apply in airsoft. The retailers/distributors knows the mentality of an airsofter and they capitalize on it.

And Ben said what he said is due to one thing...experience. He knows better and he knows what to look for.

Better accuracy is mainly due to this one fact. The BB diameter is smaller than bore diameter.

Take any airsoft barrel of a significant length and plug the muzzle with your finger. Then drop a bb in the breech side. Watch it drop down the barrel...what does it do? Well, the same thing happens when you shoot it out with pressure from a mechbox.

The bb does not touch the wall of the barrel as it travels down it's length on a cushion of air around the bb. Thus that is why a TBB is not better for accuracy. It's better for FPS.

Best accuracy comes from BB quality, hop-up consistency and then the barrel in that order.
 
#30 ·
Guges living in MN you know our weather. How long would the average brass barrel be good for with all the humidity? Beyond swabbing mine out with alcohol i wouldnt know what to look for that would decrease its performance. I also was looking at the zci barrels but wont be buying one after this.
 
#31 ·
Humidity isn't so much an issue if it's cased in not sitting in water.

Note Airsoft regions in Asia has a higher humidity index than we do and they still prefer brass barrels.
 
#34 ·
You know I am going to hit you up for details.

Which Stock barrel? TM grade AEG's? Or something around APS?
 
#37 ·
I hate to say it but SystemA brass are nicely made brass barrels...smooth as glass on the inside...no extrusion lines what so ever.

I also have some KM Teflon Barrels...these things are 18 years old...and I had some Palsonite Azimuth barrels...regular steel...tough coating...
 
#39 ·
Depends on the process on how it was applied to the brass barrel. Put on a cheap coat and it will come off...

Since we all know how the Airsoft industry works, many newer coated barrels is not as good as say the ones sold 18 years ago.
 
#41 ·
Hold it up to the light and look at the refraction. If it's smooth as glass, it's a good barrel. See lines and our wallowing...not a good barrel.
 
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