A WIP guide on choosing the right GBB M4 for you.

Discussion in 'Staging Area' started by Pirate223, Jul 17, 2012.

  1. Pirate223

    Pirate223 New Member

    481
    0
    So, for reasons that I cannot explain, I took the time today to write this article. It is a work in progress, and mostly includes what I would think to be important in the gun choosing process. If you came across an area that you would like to add to or change, leave a comment about it and I'll consider changing and\or adding whatever you have to say.

    Disclaimer: These are just my thoughts on these different guns. I'm not trying to pass any of it as fact, and I try to be as unbiased as possible. I aim for 100% truth in this.

    Hope you enjoy...
    BTW: I'm going to add this to the article section as soon as it's refined.



    Brand: KWA
    Typical price: $380

    There has been a lot of hype about the KWA LM4. But let's just say I wouldn't write home to mommy about it just yet. The gun was barely released a couple weeks ago, and yet trouble shooting threads are already popping up on the KWA tech forums.*
    One rule of thumb I've always followed to keep myself out of trouble with gas guns is don't buy one until it's been out for at least 6 months. A gun may look good on the outside, but many platforms disintegrate at around 4 months.
    As for KWA being proprietary, it can be a problem, but not really. KWA sells any\all replacement parts for a pretty good price, and there are many companies (danger werx, etc) that make upgrades for KWA products.



    Brand: KJWorks
    Typical price: $300

    As for the KJW M4 (I can offer a lot of in-depth info on this gun). Overall this gun is great as long as you don't mind putting up with a few things. I don't really mind the external finish, or the canadian mags (they are actually a good thing because KJW chose Canadian mags for the extra gas storage space), or anything else that someone can dig up on it's externals. It's biggest problems are on the inside. There were 2 bolts made for the KJW M4. V1 and V2. The V1 bolt was very reliable, but not very realistic, the V2 was very realistic, but not very reliable. Unfortunately, the V1 bolts are no longer being sold, so you can only get V2 bolts. V2 bolts last for about 5,000-6,000 rounds. They cost $30 from KJW themselves. This can easily be fixed by getting Cradle's new bolt. Cradle, BTW, is a small company that makes upgrades for the KJW M4 like TBB, a NPAS, upgrades for the V1, and now an upgraded bolt.*
    So the bolt problem can be easily fixed with the Cradle bolt.*
    However, KJW's charging handles also easily break. 2 break about every 6 months. They cost $12 ish from KJW. I've just been buying replacement charging handles until I figure out a way to get a RS charging handle to fit.*
    Also, the KJW M4's hop up is junk. It can hit about 150ft with .28-.30s without the hop, but if you want anything more you'll have to do the shrink rap mod yourself or send it to somebody to have it done.*
    And now for my final gripe....the upper receiver. Both the upper and lower are metal, but the metal is not that great. So after owning the KJW for a while (a year or more), the upper's pin holes will break off. You can get the plastic one that KJW will sell you, which would actually be an upgrade.*
    Over all, as long as you get Cradle's new bolt, get 4 charging handles at the beginning of every year or find a way to make RS handles fit, and get KJW plastic upper, it's actually a VERY reliable gun.*
    I'm sure that what I just told you makes the KJW M4 look bad, but that's only because I don't have all the same info on these other platforms.

    Brand: G&P
    Typical price: average is $550

    And now for G&P's WOCs. First of all, make sure you're not reading about the WOC-Xs. The "X" stands for "extremely affordable", in other words, cheaply made. Evike's challenge kits are WOC-Xs. You don't want to get a WOC-X unless you just want the externals or something for a project.*
    Now, the WOCs are actually pretty good. They are made with all steel internals, and last for quite a while. The only downside is that when they fail on you, they FAIL on you. Everything will go all at once. This is just the reality of WA system rifles. The system is made to give the most kick possible, not last the longest. If you get a WA gas system rifle, expect it to break. And when it does, expect to pay allot for it. Some WA gas system rifles include WELL, JG, AGM, G&P, Inokatsu, Viper Tech, and of course WA themselves.
    Some upsides to the Magna system (AKA WA system) is the RS compatibility. Most GBBRs are compatible with RS externals, but WA rifles are almost 100% compatible
    with RS externals. This means that not only will you be able to mount pistol grips and rail systems, but also dust covers, gas blocks, gas tubes, buffer tubes, RS stocks (even those like the UBR that use their own buffer tube), and more.*
    Plus, with soooooooo many after market parts out there, you can make your WA rifle into almost any type of performer you want. From a semi only high recoil DRM setup, to a high ROF light assault rifle.



    Brand: WE
    typical price: around $320

    And now, we finally come to the WE M4s. My opinion on these has gon from “utter grabage” to “OK, but needs some upgrades” ever since they were released. The fact is, and I hate to say this, WE M4s arn't actually that bad for the price. One thing you have to accept when buying a GBB M4 is that you won't get a gun that works fine without upgrades for less than $400. The WE M4s come in at about $320 right now. My biggest gripe with WE products is the in general quality of their externals. While their internals arn't that great either, you can easily replace them; but you may as well build your own rifle if you can't count on the externals to last.
    Now, since the externals arn't THAT big a deal because they will last for a while, it's time to take a look inside their M4s. With the exception of their AK series, WE GBBR internals are mostly made out of pot metal and other cheap material. This quality makes WE M4s, along with G&P's WOC-Xs, a great project gun. It provides a nice looking body to build up internally, as well as well as some temporary internals that enable you to plink with it while you are still building your weapon.
    But wait, I'm still not done with the externals. WE's paint is notorious for scratching and chipping VERY easily. The gun looks great is stock pics, but that finish won't last long when you actually start using the gun. This requires that , if you want a body that will hold it's external finish while you're using it or building a project, you either have to get an aftermarket body or paint the original one.
    And now, because it's obligitory for any review\gun chosing manual, I wiil take this moment to mention that this gun's externals are also very RS compatable. This means rail systems, pistol grips, trigger guards, etc will fit onto this gun.

    This guide was focused on mostly the reliability and external finish of these different brands, and does not include their BB shooting performance. In order to do a complete guide on that, I would need to own\have owned all these different guns.

    Every GBBR has it's problems, when you chose one you like, you're actually choosing it's set of problems over those of other platforms.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2012
  2. FSTK

    FSTK Member

    877
    0
    It's been a year since this thread was made. I can share my experience with the LM4.

    For the KWA LM4: I feel like it shares the typical problems that any other gas product made by KWA has. It's got great OTB performance at a great price with good materials used. However the performance could be better at ranges past 150ft. A decently upgraded WA/WE system could outperform the LM4 in range/accuracy. The gas efficiency of the LM4 mags are average compared to the competition. Whereas the KWA pistols' the gas efficiency per fill were clearly above the competition with a better kick as well.

    The steel bolt carrier, bolt-stop, hammer used is definitely a step-up above stock WE/KJW and on-par with G&P WOC M4s. However, a CNC'd RA-Tech Bolt-Carrier for WE or the Prime CNC'd Steel Bolt-carriers for WA will be miles better than the Bolt-carrier used in the LM4 especially when matched with their FCG. The reason is because LM4 parts are diecast. But don't forget you're paying extra for that quality. The buffer-spring used should be replaced with either a WE Winter spring and an aluminum buffer. The buffer-lock should be replaced with the part from Blowback Armory . You think this is hard? With the G&P WOCs: it's normal to pull out dremals, files, grinders, and commissioning mills to make parts for you: money and time above the effort when maintaining a LM4; just to put things in perspective. To replace a buffer lock is nothing compared to grinding at your charging handle, bolt-carrier, upper receiver, bolt-stop within mm of each other to ensure optimal operation whereas with the LM4: it's assumed that you won't ever need to do that.

    The LM4 doesn't replicate nearly all of the RS-functionality like pulling the charging handle to send the bolt home. It's recently with the LM4c that KWA started shipping modified bolt-stops with a hole made for the spring that allows the bolt to by racking the handle. The 3 piece upper receiver is very questionable considering how much recoil this rifle puts out. It's all too common to read about people having loose-upper rails after extended use. Lastly the LM4 doesn't take that well to RS parts where the barrel nut needs to be swapped for the proper threading. There's a thread dedicated to sorting out what fits and what doesn't.. The paint finish on the LM4 is pretty cheap and will chip away easily over time. To some, this could be a plus, and others it could be a minus.

    If I were to recommend the LM4 to people: it would be to those that don't want to do any work and can maintain the basic necessities of GBB ownership: The 3 piece upper receiver will fail on you if you're using this rifle extensively as your primary every weekend. But if you're simply looking for a rifle to RS-train or a plinker in the backyard: don't worry about the rail system loosening-failing anytime soon.. The problems with accuracy/range isn't nearly as bad as my post makes it sound, but compared to the competition? The LM4 can do much better. However the durability of the LM4 compared to say... a WE Gen3 M4 or the G&P WOC-X M4s is undisputed. In numbers: Buying a WE M4 and fitting it with a Maple Leaf bucking should give you better groupings than a LM4 at similar ranges. At this point, you would have to ask yourself: do you value a durable rifle? Or one that can compete with the competition. If you're routinely engaging within 40m, this should not be a factor in your decision regarding the LM4 which seems to be the deciding factor for many. $380 will give you a lot of bang for your buck, but don't have unreasonable expectations assuming it to perform as well as a $500-$700 G&P Autobot/Sentry that has been well-tuned by its owner.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2013

  3. kai808

    kai808 New Member

    0
    0
    Honolulu
    Question

    Hi! I was thinking of getting a Daytona Gun M4. I am wondering which I should get. The WE Daytona's don't have a bolt lock, which is pretty significant for me. Whereas the G&P Daytona's have an optional bolt lock. But I don't want to pay $700(Regular WOC) for a gun that I'm going to strip internally anyways. I was thinking about just getting a WOC-X challenge kit and slapping a Daytona kit on there. Would that be a good decision? Will the outside hold up? The internalls won't matter, but I want to make sure that the body doesn't crack after shooting the gun with the Daytona Kit.