Cold kill rules?

Discussion in 'Rules of Engagement' started by MutinyBri, Dec 1, 2012.

  1. MutinyBri

    MutinyBri New Member

    211
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    Victorville
    I have always thought that "cold kill" "bang bang" or whatever is used at your field was for safety reasons mainly, or stealth. When inside the minimum engagement distance of someone else you would call cold kill instead of shooting them, but only if you had them dead to rights. AKA they have their back turned to you and have no idea you are there.

    But if they see you at the same time or you surprise each other, you call out parley and go your separate ways, not engaging until you are in another building or certain distance away.

    For this reason I have always used parlay in situations when I surprise another player.

    I was playing a game a while ago and I ran into a building. I had my gun pointed at another player who was three feet away, they had their gun pointed at me. I was about to call parlay as I normal would and they called cold kill! I was like okay, in real life we would have killed each other but whatever.. my friends say it stems from paintball rules, and I've only played paintball a few times...

    Anyways, is cold kill only to be used when you have the other player dead to rights or should it be used in situations I thought parlay was for? This is opinion based, rules at your actual fields probably vary...
     
  2. hasmeen

    hasmeen New Member

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    Bakersfield
    No you are right! If they have their back turned to you can bang band them or cold kill however if you surprise each other it's parlay. Unless your field does who ever yells bang bang first gets the kill. I've played at a field where if you bang banged someone they could cancel your kill and you'd both be dead which to me was a dumb rule.
     

  3. deathmechanic

    deathmechanic Active Member

    4,038
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    Davis
    At the local CQB place they actually threw away the big bang rule with good results. More rules were inacted to keep things safe though. They had pistols be chronoed to shoot under a certain FPS so a point blank shot wouldn't leave much damage. You also had to aim low when coming around corners and such.

    At first I was skeptical at this idea as I was always used to bang bang or parley rules. Then they explained why they didn't want to use it and it made sense. To many fights had broken out on a he said she said they are dead. I had gotten a kid banned from a field cause he had called bang bang and said okay and he did a full auto burst to my unprotected ribs at 2 ft with a unchronoed 470 fps rifle.

    It was probably one of the best games I had ever played. People would call bang and you could just shoot them in the leg instead.

    I don't see many fields doing this as they deem it "unsafe", and a pain to deal with chronoing pistols to make sure somebody is running a G&G xtreme or similar CO2 pistols. Sure wish it would be used in a lot of places though.
     
  4. hasmeen

    hasmeen New Member

    438
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    Bakersfield
    That's not bad! I would actually like to see this done more l! Last game I played at I got shot from about 5 feet with an m16 that shot around 350! It hurt! Sad thing was the guy was on my team I was like wtf In my head lol because I was deaf and dead man don't talk. They where telling me to repot him to the refs but if feel bad if he got banned.
     
  5. Knief

    Knief Moderator Staff Member

    13,849
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    Ann Arbor
    I can't stand mandatory bang kills. Like DM said, the situations often devolve into fighting about who saw who first or you get one guy who tries to bang kill a big group or whatever. I've ranted about this a number of times, so I'm just going to quote myself from a previous post. This is my solution. We use it at all Hellfish games and it works great. It's been years since we've had a complaint about bang kill/surrender situation.
    ------------------------
    There's a problem with mandatory bang kills (mandatory in that you must take the "hit" if you're bang killed) that will never go away. How "dead-to-rights" a player is is subjective and based on perspective. Maybe 4 out of 5 times, the situation is such that both players recognize the shooter had the drop on the target. But at least some of the time, the target is going to feel like if the confrontation had played out with rounds fired, he wouldn't have been hit. You see it happen on a regular basis at games with mandatory bang kills.

    You can take the subjectivity out of it while offering the same safety benefits of the bang kill, and that's by turning it into an optional surrender. If you offer an opposing player a surrender that he may or may not take, you keep your gun trained on him until he calls it. If you're in a position to offer the surrender, you've already got the drop on him. If he doesn't take it--if he tries to bring is weapon up, if he tries to duck behind cover, whatever--you shoot him. Any of us can pull a trigger faster than any of us can wheel around, take aim, and then pull a trigger. If you're ready to fire in the event that the target doesn't take the surrender, you'll get the kill 99% of the time, whether he calls it or not.

    The best part is, when people know that you're offering them a courtesy instead of just shooting them or forcing them to call a hit, they feel better about it. You get almost no complaining from surrendered players when in the same situation, you're bound to hear complaining from bang killed players. Everybody wins when surrenders are optional.

    There are some people who don't win. These people have upgraded guns and are trying to surrender people within their engagement limit. No matter what the circumstances are, you are not to fire on a target within your minimum engagement limit. Bang kills, surrender rules, not liking the guy, none of that is an excuse. After goggle requirements, MEDs are the most important safety rule we have. You don't break that because you can get an extra kill. What that means for surrendering is that if you have an upgraded gun, you can still offer the surrender on a target within your MED, and he'll probably still take it--I'd venture that 9 out of 10 players respect the surrender offer. But if he doesn't, you cannot shoot him. He'll either duck away or shoot you. Tough nuts, it's the price you pay for the extra range. If it chaps your keister that much, buy a sidearm and use that for close range and surrenders.
     
  6. hasmeen

    hasmeen New Member

    438
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    Bakersfield
    I have never played with the surrender rule.
    Yes I agree if you gun shoots than is allowed for cqb than you shouldn't shoot someone close range.
     
  7. MutinyBri

    MutinyBri New Member

    211
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    Victorville
    I really like the idea of doing away with the rule altogether. No engagement limit if your gun shoots under 350 fps. Simple case of giving people different colored chrono tags if there gun is over 350; and if they shoot someone with a hot gun they sit out a game or are even banned for the day.

    Really it's not that dangerous to get shot close at 350, unless they shoot you in the face, which should also be illegal under 10 feet. Would be fixed if I still worked at my local field.. oh well lol
     
  8. Lil_Shady

    Lil_Shady Administrator Staff Member Lifetime Supporter

    7,639
    61
    Everywhere I've played it's optional. If I'm that close ill usually just knife them or shoot them. I'm not nice and I don't want to risk it.
     
  9. MR38

    MR38 New Member

    2,274
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    Washington
    I prefer my solution to this problem. I just use a dummy knife when I come across an unsuspecting enemy player (usually only if I'm within five feet of them.) It is also gets rid of the problem of finding a group of enemies. If possible I quickly and quietly kill the players from back to front using knife as well as my pistol that shoots at 260fps(I try to shoot at the legs or in the chest if they're wearing a PC.) But I know this is not possible at all fields because of minimum engagement distances as well as rules prohibiting melee weapons.
     
  10. hasmeen

    hasmeen New Member

    438
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    Bakersfield
    I have no clue how hard it was shooting but I had welts for a while
     
  11. deathmechanic

    deathmechanic Active Member

    4,038
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    Davis

    Yup 350 fps replicas had no MED while a 400 fps replica had a 15' MED. Also really stopped any issues with hit calling. I don't know if the rule is still in effect haven't been able to airsoft lately.

    I ran this by our local outdoor field and we did away with the bang bang rule too. Only issue we had with it was concerned parents over lil Johnny being shot point blank. Still I really wish this was just done at every field since it solves almost all issues with CQC fights.
     
  12. bonnax

    bonnax New Member

    447
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    London
    The field I play at have done away with 'bang-bang'ing/safety kill rules as well. I think it actually makes for a better game since there aren't any 'I banged you first' arguments. My CQB field has made it optional so that if you're behind someone, you can ask them to surrender/die but they don't have to. It's stupid not to surrender because you'll get shot as you turn around, but some people still try. I've always surrendered when I've been asked; don't want to get shot from that close.. To get around the problem of not knowing if they'll surrender, I carry a small knife in an open pouch on my vest: easy to get to and people have to take knife kills. Simple. The only downside of the optional saftey-kills is that I hate having to shoot 12 year olds from 3 feet because they refuse to surrender.

    My field has a 350FPS rule for all guns. I wouldn't trust the small kids to be able to judge 15', and if one turns a corner and is surprised to see you, my guess is they'd just shoot out of selfpreservation, no matter the distance.
     
  13. MamothBear

    MamothBear New Member

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    Vicksburg
    The bang bang has a place and every player has misunderstood it at one point.. Parlay is actualy supposed to stop the who saw who first argument. Parlay if you both see each other, your both out. Ban Bang is blind sided. Doing away with it makes since... But i would realy rather a tap and bang bang compared to a side arm point blank..... I have parlayed, bang banged and been on the recieving end. Keep them for point blank sub 300 fps side arm, and primaries are what you want
     
  14. Ham

    Ham New Member

    131
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    Lowell
    I was just about to start a thread on this, funny I stumbled across it.

    I just got done having a huge argument on a local forum which is leading to rule changes at a field for an incident I got on video.

    The video is here, the incident starts at 1:07 - [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KOjhUAHFI8"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KOjhUAHFI8[/ame]

    The field rules stated: Safety kills are NOT REQUIRED TO BE TAKEN. They are an optional courtesy offered by the shooter, completely up to the player to accept or deny it. He stuck a gun in my back (barrel tags are a no go, no physical contact allowed beyond a rubber knife. they do NOT COUNT FOR ANYTHING), I turned around and shot him with my pistol.

    (I'm not a dick, as you can see I regularly offer safety kills to everyone in the right situation and did so 5 or 6 times in the same video)

    Apparently around here following the rules and playing a situation out that the easily butthurt don't like means I'm an aggressive asshat, I say the other guy needs to pay more attention to the rules and what opponents are doing.

    Now if I had known he was younger I would have let him have the safety kill, but his voice is deeper than his body matches up to.


    IF it were up to me safety kills would be a thing of the past and people would shoot it out, though leaving it as an option is just fine. Its pew pew BB guns, it doesn't hurt that bad (maybe it was the 10 years of throwing myself down and over flights of stairs on a skateboard, maybe I'm just crazy). Obviously face shots from that close are the exception to that rule, but I've always played with a "Never surrender, fight to the last BB" mentality. Now thats not to say I've never accepted a safety kill, believe me I do when I know I'm actually dead to rights and I appreciate the gesture, however its a game and I'm going to play out every option I have in line with the field rules.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2012
  15. bonnax

    bonnax New Member

    447
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    London
    I wouldve taken the safety kill in that situation, but hey, you managed to shoot and kill him. Fair play.

    I'm interested as to what argument they had.. How did that pan out?

    What are the rules changing to?
     
  16. Ham

    Ham New Member

    131
    0
    Lowell
    http://maasf.org/forum/showthread.php/20552-Safety-kills-your-opinions

    heres a link to the thread, get ready for the hilarity to ensue. It got locked by the end of the first night and generated 2700 views in the 10 or so hours it was up (before the lock)

    As for the rule changes, idk yet they won't say. But I'll bet they are going to start requiring players to take the SKs, to which that field will see a whole lot less of me. Idk why people can't just shoot it out and stop crying about "safety", but I guess thats what happens when everyone lives in a nanny state (MA)
     
  17. Knief

    Knief Moderator Staff Member

    13,849
    3
    Ann Arbor
    Honestly, I think you were in the wrong in that situation. Safety aside, the guy was doing you a favor by not shooting you at close range. You may want to shoot it out, but show the guy some respect for not just plugging you in the back from point blank. The problem in this case is that you don't seem to acknowledge that he was putting himself in a potentially worse situation for your benefit and your benefit alone. He feels hurt because he feels like his good deed was betrayed, which it was. In that situation, it's just simple courtesy to take the kill and be on your way.
     
  18. Ham

    Ham New Member

    131
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    Lowell
    I pulled the guy aside after the game and we had a chat about it, funny part is he thought it was all funny.

    And idk if everyone thinks I got shot, was out, and stormed past him saying I don't take them...I was still playing and moved on to another building. The guys across the street were friendlies and I noticed as soon as I shot, we both missed.
     
  19. Lil_Shady

    Lil_Shady Administrator Staff Member Lifetime Supporter

    7,639
    61
    I think this delves more into the "spirit of the rule" vs "letter of the rule" discussion. I honestly would have done the same thing. You broke no rules by not accepting a surrender, and he broke the rules by trying to do a barrel tap.
     
  20. Southpawlegend

    Southpawlegend New Member

    1,416
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    Salisbury
    Personally I had an experience where I was sniping with my sar and some kid was running up behind me. I heard him so I spun and went to shoot but he was way to close so I fudged the shot as not to hurt him and took the out.