[OutlawAirsoft]

The obvious solution is to simply do both.

 

[mr. potatohead]

What M4 is this? Good trademarks?

 

[danerd]

The obvious solution is to simply do both.

That thought has crossed my mind. However my vacation fund has already taken a hit and I'm not too keen on taking more out.

@mr. potatohead one has Knights Armament markings, the other has Magpul. Both OEMd by the same company.

 

[danerd]

With things beginning to settle down a bit after moving, I can get back into doing silly things. The M4 arrived today, along with a few bits to get it where I want. I also picked up a customer this weekend and have thier rifle with me to do a complete rebuild on.

The rifle that I picked up is a mint condition G&P Magpul Carbine with OD PTS furniture (handguard, motor grip, stock, rear sight and OG PTS Pmag) The original box is a tad beat-up, but still in good shape. 300 beans after shipping had it at my door. My plans are for a basic tune-up, swap the M120 motor for an SHS HT, install an FMR piston, POM piston head and a Perun FET. Hopup group will remain stock - save for me installing an IR Hop on the stock barrel. It doesn't need anything more than that to run like a champ. From there I plan on swaping out the furniture and make it into more of a Block II. I already have those parts on-hand from a previous build, so it shouldn't take long to do.


My customer brought me a VFC Avalon Saber with a worse for wear Inferno HPA engine. He wants it converted back into an AEG as he's doesn't like HPA. Luckily the rifle has the Original VFC gearbox. Unfortunately that's all it has - no other internal gearbox parts whatsoever. I asked him what sort of performance specs he wanted. He pointed to my G36 and said "I want that." I said "OK, I'll get you a parts list and a cost estimate in the coming days, and we can go from there."

I have 90% of the parts on-hand to get this running the way he wants. Id just need to order a few odds and ends. Should be a fun little project - especially since he said he's had the thing for almost 2 years and it's never quite worked right since he got it.

 

[danerd]

I almost forgot about my thread here. Since my last post I got my customer's Avalon running once agian. They seemed happy to finally have a good working AEG and mentioned that after they game with it for a while they may want me to take it up a few notches in performance.

The G&P is sitting in a myriad of parts while I wait for things to arrive for it. The Block II is still a thing that I plan on doing, but I may tweak things a tad.

I was giving the G36 a well-deserved maintenance checkup seeing as how the Titan is showing a round count of about 50k since I first put it together. Everything looked fine save for the piston. I noticed that the body had cracked around the rack and small pieces of the rear reinforcement had been eaten away. The rack was still in place albeit just barely. This is not the first time this has happened; in fact this is the 3rd failure of this type. I'd normally attribute it to poor QC on SHS's part, but 3 similar failures across 3 pistons from 3 different sources (purchased at different times) lead me to belive its my installation.

I typically shave off the lat 2 teeth to account for AOE correction, clean the rack guide/slot with 90% isopropyl alcohol, let dry and then CA glue the rack into place and let sit and cure overnight.

I did change the way I correct AOE recently. I moved from sorbothane + neoprene pads to a hard(er) rubber/plastic washer I place between the piston body and head as it was cheaper. All 3 of the failures have been on this particular setup. I never noticed this happening on my previous method. This time I went ahead and removed the washer and re-corrected the AOE with a Sorbo + neo pad combo. Hopefully this fixes the issue as pistons seemed to be grenading themselves after ~10-15k cycles or so in other test builds, which is totally unacceptable. The setups have been nothing surprising; 400 fps, 25-30 rps. Mainly testing out motor, spring and gear ratio combos.

On another note...

Seeing as how it's "the off-season" up here in Northeast Ohio and people for whatever reason don't like the cold and snow, I think it's time to really get some fun things going. I previously mentioned that I'd like to build a DSG (or two) down the line and I'll be doing that here. I originally intended for the G36 to run as a DSG, but it was riddled with issues that I didn't have the time or funds to really deal with. It worked; i.e. cycled and fed great, but left a lot to be desired. The FPS was a paultry 280 on an SP170 spring, it wouldn't go above 34-35 rps and the Titan on DSG mode and 100% AB would double-cycle and I'd very lucky to get 2-3 semi-auto shots before getting something else. Frustrated I put the DSG gearset into a box "for use later". Well, later has arrived and I think it time to re-visit the idea. The setup for this is as follows:

SHS 18:1 8-tooth DSG
SHS 16tpa motor
Guarder SP160 or SP170 spring
370mm barrel this should be doable
The goal here is to get as close to 400 fps as possible. Rps doesn't really matter, but somewhere around 40 would be nice. I have the parts on-hand to do this with. I think I just overlooked things in the beginning. Complete parts list is as follows:

JG 8mm QCS shell
ACM steel bearing QCS guide
JG nylon tappet + spring
SHS piston
Lonex POM piston head
Stainless Type 0 cylinder
SHS aluminum cylinder head w/Sorbo + neo pads
Lonex nozzle
Lonex hopup
Lonex packing
I have both 6.05 and 6.02 barrels I can use to tweak FPS if needed, as well as an assortment of spacers to tweak the spring compression as well. According to Siegetek's DSG maual, an 8-t SP160 should yield about 92 m/s, an SP170 about 99 m/s. With a spacer the 160 should give about 128 m/s and the 170 is unlisted.

Comments and input are always welcome! It's been a few years since I last did a DSG and sadly I lost my notes from that one when I rebuilt my PC around the same time.

 

[Leo Greer]

I’m not an expert here, but does it seem like you might undervolume with a barrel that long and potentially lose FPS? From my napkin math it seems like you’d be pushing the limits w/ .20s in terms of having enough air. Idk, just something to think about.

 

[danerd]

That's my concern. The napkin math on my first DSG was that Id be on the edge with a 300mm 6.02, a 9-tooth DSG and .28s. Turns out I had plenty of air - so much so it would joule creep on .28s.

It currently sits as a 12:1 SSG with a Guarder SP130 that is yielding about 435fps. According to Siegetek's chart, a spaced SP130/M130 should give about 100 m/s (~330) fps. I'll use that as my baseline from which I can increase the spring load and document what increase in velocity I can get. The QCS gearbox is definitely going to come in handy here.

But then again my chrono gave me this reading, som I'm currently questioning everything

 

[Leo Greer]

Noobs be like:

“Wowza that’s an amazing airsoft gun! I bet the cheaters call it when you snipe them from 500 yards away. How many DSGs does it have and how many HPAs can you fit inside at once??”

But in all seriousness, it seems like there’s some shenaniganery going on with how things are rated and calculated. Leo’s suggestion: build it, chrono it, and THEN make predictions about what it’ll shoot at.

Not as powerful as yours, but this is my HPASG:

 

[mr. potatohead]

Yep, I agree you'll definitely be undervolumed. Given your build goals I feel like your SSG build would be better suited than a DSG. Backing your spring strength down and short stroking teeth off of your sector would help.

 

[Leo Greer]

But… but trigger response.

 

[danerd]

I tested the spaced SP130 theory last night. Despite the Titan still double cycling on DSG mode and with AB set to 100%, I managed to get a few semi-auto readings. Across 20 shots (when I got them) it averaged 98.7 m/s, which is right about where it should be according to my literature. Velocity deviation was +/- 1.2 m/s.

Rate of fire was a blistering 54 rps according to my chrono. Nice to see the Dboys G36 mags can feed .20s that fast. Now it time to see what I can get by upping the spring.

 

[danerd]

After a over a week of tinkering and testing, it seems I won't get the fps I want out of DSG'ing the G36 - not without getting a 9-tooth setup, and those are hard to come by as of late. The best I'm able to get is ~360 fps on a spaced SP170 with 6.02 tbb and a bore-up kit. To add insult to injury, the Titan still double-cycles no matter what settings I have it on.

I did experiment with the bore-up kit a bit on the SSG setup I have back in the G36. (12:1 and stock 6.08ish barrel) and on a typical type 0 cylinder and a Guarder SP130 I was around 430 fps. With the bore-up kit I was hitting a whopping 487. I'll pull 2 teeth off and that should get it around the 400 mark after I pull the BUK out.

This however gives me an idea...
The Magpul has been sitting on my desk waiting for me to finish the G36. I also have a 9" outer barrel for it and a matching inner and everything needed to DSG it...

Hmmm......

 

[Leo Greer]

This thread makes me want a G36.

 

[danerd]

This thread makes me want a G36.

What's stopping you then?

 

[Leo Greer]

Honestly, not much. The only thing I’d need would be one of those stanag mag adapters. I have a Tienly short type 25K sitting around that would be perfect—all it needs is an end bell… which is of course impossible to find.

 

[savagemann]

Honestly, not much. The only thing I’d need would be one of those stanag mag adapters. I have a Tienly short type 25K sitting around that would be perfect—all it needs is an end bell… which is of course impossible to find.

I have a tienly 25k long that needs an end bell as well. If you find one that is not $50 shipped, let me know!

 

[danerd]

The G36 is nearly there, just ~5 fps off of my target. That consistency though.... The Magpul is next. If I can get things to play nicely, I might be looking at a 9" internally suppressed rifle, full 12" rail with an 8t SP170 DSG under the hood.

 

[danerd]

It's been a hot second since my last post - mainly because I've just been busy.

I'm still planning on getting a DSG up and running one of these days. I have the parts but not the intense motivation to sit down and work on it. It seems like that's all I've been doing the past month (possibly longer) and I'm getting a bit burnt out on it. The SSG setups I have run perfectly fine.


All of that being said, a good distraction might be nice, and I've been thinking on diving down a rabbit hole: the world of GBBRs. I built a WE-based M4 years and years ago, and it was a blast to mess around with. I also learned a lot and realized that the mistakes I made intially were silly and that my reasons for getting rid of it were equally unfounded. That being said....


I'm considering what platform I'd like to tinker with. Having had a WE, it's a contender. They aren't the best out of the box, but it doesn't take much to get them running well.

WA is also a strong contender as they work well (when tuned and with good parts) and have a massive aftermarket parts market, much like WE. I'm looking at offerings from G&P here and not the WOC-X kits, but the WOC units with better build quality.

KJW is one that seems a tad odd. Quality appears to be there, but I'm not well-versed with them. The same goes for Innokatsu.

TM is TM. The MWS is probably the "best" system out there in terms of out-of-the-box quality, but all I really know about them is word-of-mouth from the fan boys.

GHK isn't really on my list as their QC is hit and miss and appears to be more miss as of late. That's a chance I'm not really willing to take. It's sad because I know when the QC is a hit, they are great products.

Feel free to chime in with your thoughts and any input on this idea. It would be a good break from all of the AEGs. I do know that this endeavor will be expensive, but aren't all hobbies this to a point?

 

[aotsukisho]

I'm considering what platform I'd like to tinker with. Having had a WE, it's a contender. They aren't the best out of the box, but it doesn't take much to get them running well.

Friend of mine has a WE and loves it, there's more of an aftermarket (RATECH) compared to their pistols so parts can gradually be swapped as they break to extend its life. Only point of incompatibility is that transition from closed to open bolt systems but there are firstparty conversion kits for that.

If my WE M14 didn't cost so damn much to get running I'd have a much more favorable opinion of it. I'm sure if I got a WE M4 I would have enjoyed it a lot more.

WA is also a strong contender as they work well (when tuned and with good parts) and have a massive aftermarket parts market, much like WE. I'm looking at offerings from G&P here and not the WOC-X kits, but the WOC units with better build quality.

WA system is the most 'realistic' if that's what you're going for but they are supposedly kind of fragile out of the box. Doesn't help that each manufacturer has subtle modifications so they aren't always intercompatible. I have an older GHK M4 v1 and it runs well as a primary but have not had much experience with other brands. Have personally seen a VFC 416 struggle at our field, but I'm trying to get a VFC of my own to either reinforce or dispel my bias. I have a WOC based project going slowly, and at first glance it seems like the FCG design is way more complex than it needs to be.

Current consensus of the groups I follow is that GHK's QC went downhill but their mags are still the best thing ever made even though the feed lips are extremely stiff and designed for Asia spec bbs (smaller). Devilhunter is also manufacturing aluminum feed lips for people who can't be bothered to load their mags correctly and crack theirs.

KJW is one that seems a tad odd. Quality appears to be there, but I'm not well-versed with them. The same goes for Innokatsu.

I'm working on one right now and it's probably the most bizarre combination of things I've seen in a gas AR platform. Almost everything is proprietary in all three revisions of it, but it does fit AR-15 parts in some places you wouldn't expect (stock functional forward assist that accepts AR-15 spec). I've heard KJW is great at taking care of customers in the sense that spare parts are easily accessible but cannot confirm yet.

TDC hop adjustment mod is very easily done on this, and it actually accepts AEG outer barrels that can be modified with a dremel to add a slot on the bottom that the bb pickup on the nozzle sits. If you are one for light trigger pulls, the KJW I'm working on has a sub 3lb break which is the lightest I've ever felt on an M4 replica.

Unfortunately it shoots very hot out of the box (450fps with 0.25g with a 250mm inner barrel) and the primary manufacturer of aftermarket parts like FPS reducers is long gone (Cradle Airsoft). Also the charging handle is weak and will break on you but fortunately you can modify an AR-15 one to work

I'm not 100% sure on Inokatsu but there is one on Redwolf that apparently takes GHK mags, not sure if that means it's a modified WA system or a Koba system like the KJW.

TM is TM. The MWS is probably the "best" system out there in terms of out-of-the-box quality, but all I really know about them is word-of-mouth from the fan boys.

TM Zet is probably the most efficient and I do like their shock absorber system on the bolt catch, but the trigger is so mushy it just feels like a big pistol in terms of feel. Speaking of the trigger, it's a cartridge style with tons of sliding parts and if you grease it wrong it will fail to reset. G&P make aftermarket trigger parts including a drop in cassette but I'm not sure how much this improves feel. I had an M4 Block I Zet that I sold (because I got an offer, not because I was looking to get rid of it), and I still have my Prowin AR-9 Zet that uses TM G-series mags.

Biggest con for me aside from the trigger is the fact that their STANAGs are glossy and clink like ceramic bricks when they contact each other. If you don't mind that, they also make Type 89 mags that fit in the M4 too if you want something a little different.

 

[danerd]

Thanks for the input @atushiko! I've narrowed things down to either a WE or WA pattern; the WA being a G&P derivative.

I agree that the WA FCG looks more complex than it should be, but that may just be superficial. I have heard that the non-G&P WA platforms can be a little brittle, especially the S&T/JG/GE made ones. King Arms seem to be alright.

My intent here is to clone my current-issue service rifle as close as I possibly can. Given that it would be a GBBR, I think I can get that pretty darn close. It then comes down to the attention to detail on the little things.

WE makes an M4A1 in (almost) the exact configuration as my service weapon, but there are a few little things off with it, and at over $500 imported to the States, that's a pretty penny. I have found someone who is selling a G&P WOC with full steel internals and 5x non-leaky mags for $300. It would need virtually a full body swap to get it into the right configuration, though. That would be a lower receiver, outer barrel RIS and some hardware pieces.