[MrJeff]

Current Build:
SHS 18:1 DSG (8tooth)
G&G 18:1 Bevel & Spur
SHS swiss cheese piston (teeth cut off, 3rd tooth lightly shaved down, AOE corrected)
Lonex Aluminum Piston Head (bearings removed, spring guide has them)
Lonex Full cylinder
Lonex Cylinder Head (one with the pads at the front of the gearbox)
Retro Arms 8mm GB
Matrix Meteorite bushings
Maxx 21.25 nozzle (2nd o-ring removed)
Tappet plate cut to 10mm (Guarder)
Real Deal Tappet Spring
ASG 30k (not the fancy CNC)
Perun Hybrid (in DSG mode, no AB in semi or in full auto, no precock, no ROF control)
Maxx ME Pro Hop-up
6.03 155mm brass Krytac barrel
G&G green bucking
M170 (Modify)


Swapped to M170 to avoid PME, fixed that, (Lonex POM piston head arrives in 2 days), when I swapped, semi works fine but when I go to FA, it'll usually shoot a 3-4 round burst, and then blink red and wont shoot till plugged in, according to Perun manual, it states it is due to pulling over 100A. Sometimes I am able to get 40-50 shots before it freaks out as well. Just checked piston tightness (w/ & w/o cylinder), tappet tightness, nozzle tightness, re shimmed and re adjusted motor height, still freaks out the same. Any ideas? 30k not able to pull M170?? Why would it work on semi and not full? I've tried different 30k's, same issue, only happens on any 11.1v I have, doesn't freak out on 7.4v.

 

[rm105]

What is your battery? Brand mAh and C rating?

When you shim, do you check how freely the gearset spins by hand with the shell completely closed? For some reason a lot of folks only check for axle play, not actual rolling resistance

ASG 30k is 16tpa afaik, should pull a m170 with an 18:1 DSG although there are certainly better choices (Arcturus 25k, etc). I haven't used an ASG in a while but I seem to remember them drawing more current than is typical.

FPS consistent on 7.4 and 11.1?

Try turning ROF control on and see if it's totally ok - until ROF control is at a certain %. If so, Could be seeing an amp spike due to PME with that heavy piston? What's the RPS like when it is shooting? Any wear on the pickup tooth?

Check your motor terminals, make sure they are good and tight on the motor tabs.

Shouldn't arbitrarily trim tappet to 10mm, if you find yourself having timing issues ping or DM me and I'll share the method.

Try turning AB on, maybe 40%, see if it helps. If piston is parking rearward, could cause the motor to really strain when starting a new cycle

 

[MrJeff]

Battery is a Zeee 11.1v 3000mah 50C, I also tried a titan 3000mah 15C (same issue). I checked for rolling resistance, spins nicely with all gears in closed gearbox w/o compression parts and spring. FPS is consistent on 7.4, a little over 25rps. 11.1v with m160 was hitting PME and now wont fire on full more than the bursts so can't check that yet. Motor terminals are tight and "click" into place. Tappet may need to be trimmed slightly shorter, there was slight fps loss on full with the weaker 11.1v with M160, but still could've been PME. Slight wear on pickup tooth was "added" once using larger battery and obviously hitting PME (will replace once all this nonsense is sorted out.) Will attempt the AB & ROF control and report back, It appears to be slightly overspinning but not double shooting, so your reasoning makes great sense to me. Should I go 30k or 25k? What brand and speed do you recommend?

 

[MrJeff]

Set AB to level 2(out of 5), ROF control to lvl 1 (6%). Shots till 19 are semi auto, consistent. After that is full which doesn't seem to feed... Will keep messing around with settings and mags.

 

[MrJeff]

Looks like it was the mag, thanks again rm105!

 

[MrJeff]

Any suggestions on where to look to get my 10-15fps drop on full back or should I just live with it? I would prefer to make it as perfect as possible.

How much of a ROF increase would I see going to 16:1s? Would a 30k still work fine with 16:1s or would it be more worthwhile to do 14:1s and a 22k? Can a 30k pull an M170 on 14:1s?

Can I swiss cheese the swiss cheese SHS even more without completely removing all structure? If so how should I go about it?
Should I sand the front of my tappet plate to let the nozzle further into the hop? Can I go too far? How do I know?

 

[Jimps]

The 30K cant even keep up with 18:1/DSG/M170. 41RPS means your motor is at 22k under load. That is a loss of 8k RPM. You could probably put a Tienly 25K motor in and get the exact same RPS with less voltage sag and current draw. My 14:1 SC DSG uses a 32TPA motor SP150 with 14.8v lipo. I'm at 41 RPS with basically zero motor heat spamming semi and binary. 11.1v you can get away with a 22TPA motor and 14:1 but 28TPA is more efficient. I ran a 28TPA with 14:1 and 14.8v but it was like 58RPS and more than I needed. I got stuck with a 32TPA motor and decided to just use it. Make sure your piston head is venting well. I gained around 6-8FPS in auto by using a thinner o ring and widening the holes on my piston head. With an aluminum piston head you should be able to get a piston weight of around 22 grams, depending on the piston head. Your FPS is fine considering you have a 155mm barrel. I would leave the nozzle alone, don't think there is an issue there. But to answer the question, I have builds where the tappet plate does not even touch the front of the shell because the nozzle is holding it back resting on the hop rubber lips. Not great for hopup rubber longevity lol.

 

[rm105]

Motor is always going to pull down under load unless you mitigate voltage sag, cycling at ~75% the no load rating is pretty normal. Personally I'd suggest an Arcturus 25k / 21tpa over the Tienly 25k in most cases - have both, did a side by side comparison a while back and found the performance difference to be pretty marginal.

Arcturus 25K High Torque Neodymium Motor (Long Type)

www.airsoftgi.com

Turns out that was pretty bang on @OutlawAirsoft - in my setup the Arcturus 25k 21t actually spikes 2A less than the Tienly 25k 22t (in semi, 70A vs 72A), Vdrop is 0.16v less on the Arcturus (semi, 4.64v vs 4.8v), but RPS did go up ~2 with the Tienly. The Arcturus has been broken in while the Tienly is fresh out of the box - may be some minor improvement as the brushes wear in etc.

I suspect if my setup wasn't already so efficient the Tienly would shine by being able to handle the load without pulling down as far - in this particular setup the Arcturus simply isn't struggling enough for the Tienly to make a significant difference. Cooling will be better with the Tienly no doubt, higher QC will make for a longer lasting motor etc etc, but once again we see that parts selection, balance, and tuning is everything in this sport. Plots below are SEMI w/ AB on.

 

[mr. potatohead]

I've had an 18:1 DSG with an ASG 30k and hit 48 rps, got too warm for my taste though. I guess you could try checking your brushes for carbon build-up? But as mentioned by others and IME, the ASG ain't optimal.

 

[MrJeff]

It's a brand new ASG 30k, so brushes still have plenty of life and minimal carbon build up on the shaft. I believe the 41 rps is lower due to the 40% active braking and ROF control on. I have a Lonex POM & Guarder SP150 arriving tomorrow and hope to be able to once again turn those off or at the very least lower them. I have an ASG CNC 22k I might toss in as well. Is 16:1 worthwhile or will I see minimal performance gains and should just go 14:1 with a higher torque motor? I'll widen the holes on the POM when it arrives after testing to see if I can also gain a FPS bump in full, thanks for all the responses.

 

[rm105]

With a 16tpa motor I'd stick with 18s since it needs all the help it can get. If you've got a 22tpa handy then 16s would make a lot of sense imo - should gain you some RPS but hard to predict how much since you'd be changing multiple things around and the current config isn't tuned... Speed isn't your friend right now, need to get the gun working before trying to make it faster with lower ratio gears, stronger motors, etc.

14s I'd stay well away from until you've got few DSGs under your belt.

 

[MrJeff]

I agree that I need to get this one tuned in first 😂 just curious as to what people run and what is considered "better" and if it's even worthwhile spending $30 for a set of 16:1s to play around with or if it's a total waste of time and the next thing to play with is 14:1s

 

[rm105]

There's as many options and opinions as there are people lol. What is 'better' depends on your goals. If it's a field gun, anything over ~40rps has no practical benefit imo. If you're just showing off, anything other than 69 isn't enough of a flex. If you live for the challenge, 100 is a nice even sounding number

My CQB primary currently shoots ~45 rps on a 1Ah 3s buffer tube stick, 16:1 DSG. Strikes a good balance between trigger response and reliability, relatively low maintenance. I ran it at ~60rps before the current config but went through two tappets, had to carry extra batteries to the field, etc - more hassle than I wanted from a field gun.

 

[MrJeff]

Of course we're going for the flex of stupid rof, I just don't want it to be overly unreliable as well. I'm fine charging more batteries, bringing more and swapping them on the field, that's not an issue for me. If you're smashing tappets very often that's more along the lines of an annoying inconvenience, especially for say 50vs60rps, depending on how much longer a tappet lasts in trade for rof. I'd like a solid build that shoots 50+ but at the same time is spammable in semi/binary without excessive motor heat. Have you had any luck with brushless?

 

[rm105]

In other words, like the rest of us, you want your cake and to eat it too

Haven't stuck a brushless behind a DSG yet, hear good things but waiting to see if we get a gen2