ICS Split Gearbox

Discussion in 'Gun Building, Modifications & Repairs' started by Protectionperfection, Nov 9, 2012.

  1. Protectionperfection

    Protectionperfection New Member

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    I have a completely empty ICS Split GB shell that I want to build. I am looking to make a DMR out of an M16 shell.
    For the ICS people, what would be the best way to go about doing this?
    Looking for input on internals to use to have a long lasting rifle that will be a "counter sniper"

    *Edit* I forgot to put down desired FPS. around 530 with a .20, the max is 550 with a .20 so just to be safe. I will be using .25, .28 or .30 depending on testing after the build.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
  2. Archer627

    Archer627 New Member

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    Well, ICS gearboxes take normal V2 parts IIRC. Since that's the case, you will have a host of parts to choose from. You'll want to go for trigger response (13:1 ratio gears xD) and range. If its a DMR (is it going to be?), you'll want to have a metal piston head to help push out heavier BBs (that theory is kind of controversial). Parts list:

    -Full Cylinder
    -SHS cylinder head (any cylinder head would work though)
    -Lonex M4 nozzle
    -SHS Tappet plate (with a coil cut to enhance return speed)
    -CORE/SHS/ZCI 13:1 or 16:1 gears
    -Lonex long Torque Motor (orange)
    -Metsl ball bearing Spring guide
    -FPS GOAL????
    -Nylon 15T piston
    -16 AWG wire
    -XT connectors
    -3034 MOSFET (TVI one preferred to prevent voltage spikes)
    -Lonex Bucking
    -Your choice of hop up.
    -IR hop
    -M nub
    -6.03mm TBB (Prommy is good)
    -Lock down and prevent any movement in hop up/barrel. Lemme know if you have any other questions.
    -Aluminum Piston head (POM would work, too)
     

  3. Protectionperfection

    Protectionperfection New Member

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    *FPS updated in first post*
    I am not sure if all the parts are standard V2... I know the hopup is proprietary and modification is needed for others to fit. Im not sure what other parts are proprietary or not thats why Im asking on here...
    I would love instant trigger response, I will be using a 7.4 lipo with deans to match my batteries and other guns (I wont go back to an 11.1 after a fire and an expanded prefire im all set)

    Thanks for listing companies next to some of the parts as I have always been unsure which are the best to use. I have only really used SHS for any parts...
     
  4. Star_folder

    Star_folder New Member

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    I'd avoid the SHS gears for this, espcecially if you are going the high speed route. Lonex gears are decent, but still a little expensive. Opinion is still out on ZCI, and CORE has been bringing back good results. Given the choices, CORE would probably be the best choice, unless you have the budget for Siegetek gears.
     
  5. Archer627

    Archer627 New Member

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    Yeah. Shoulda mentioned that myself o_O. Lol. I'll be picking up some ZCI gears to test along with a piston and piston head. Lonex gears would be good, too.
     
  6. Protectionperfection

    Protectionperfection New Member

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    Im not doing high speed but high torque. it will be a semi only gun.
    This build will take me a while. it will be my project for next year to break out. I am putting aside small amounts of money for this so that I can just save and buy as I can. looking for a shopping list right now basically, school bills, tool bills, and V8 truck kill me funds wise. It will be a few months before I get most of this stuff together
     
  7. Star_folder

    Star_folder New Member

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    We are aware that you are building a DMR. However, your limitation of a 7.4v will reduce your trigger response. We are trying to help by compensating for the lack of power, by decreasing the gear ratio. If this is not what you want to do, it's ultimately up to you.

    I also meant to say that Lonex makes good pistons.
     
  8. mnmetalhead1

    mnmetalhead1 GBB FTW Supporting Member

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    Maybe this is a stupid idea, but why the hell are you putting high speed gears in a DMR? if your going to shoot 530 why not either keep 18:1 and a torque motor or go with torque gears and a high speed motor because you dont need a high ROF with a semi auto only gun. I do agree with the air nozzle, R or IR Hop, and Prometheus Barrel but i cant understand why youd recommend a Nylon piston? that much pressure on the teeth are going to shred the nylon teeth, Modify Quantum Piston or Classic Army Piston with Steel Teeth would be my choice.

    trigger response is nice but you cant have your cake and eat it too, so pick one or the other lol
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
  9. Star_folder

    Star_folder New Member

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    Trigger response. I explained it earlier, PP is planning on using a 7.4v battery, this does not have the voltage to give excellent trigger response, not for me at least. Because 7.4v lipos still have high discharge rates, and are able to properly feed a motor, high speed gears are still an option.

    You are right that this gun will not be run in full auto, but think about this, if you are getting 20rps on 18:1 gears, and upgrade to 13:1 gears, you're looking at upper 20s, let's say 30rps to keep it simple. That's a 50% increase in trigger speed. That's the difference of pulling the trigger half way and not getting a full cycle, but getting semi lock up, or pulling the trigger half way and the gears have fully cycled. Do you understand now why high speed gears are not a bad thing for DMRs?

    Torque gears are never an option unless you want to slow down your rate of fire. Using a speed motor and torque gears is just silly. Think buying a VFC just so you can use .12s in it.

    Archer suggested a Nylon piston with 15 metal teeth, that's what the 15T means. A full metal piston is a horrible idea as it's way too heavy and greatly increases the chances of parts failure. A nylon body is light, while still giving the strength of metal teeth. However, only the release tooth needs to be metal. A Nylon piston is plenty strong enough given that the AoE is correct. His goals are by no means extreme.
     
  10. Archer627

    Archer627 New Member

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    Well, a bit of a dispute just happened xD. Lol. Anyways, m150 spring looks to be appropriate. That or an sp140 (both of those are the equivalent to each other due to the SP### being measured with heavier BBs.). Brands for spring are Madbull, Modify, or Guarder. I use some PDI springs (really nice springs, by the way ;P).

    High speed gears are just fine in a DMR. Trigger response and range are always goals in my builds. Star clarified why very well.

    OP, do you know what mods would have to be done to make this a DMR? Are you disabling full auto?
     
  11. mnmetalhead1

    mnmetalhead1 GBB FTW Supporting Member

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    i understand your logic but if i was to build a DMR im not going to plan on snap shooting at anything so trigger response isnt as important. I do see what you guys are talking about and i didnt recommend a FULL metal piston, but i wanted to be sure that he wasnt recommending a nylon piston with a last metal tooth. If you plan to shoot 530 thats almost a M150 spring, probably M140 since your running ball bearings on the head and spring guide, i wouldnt trust a high speed motor to handle that for very long. I can see 16:1 but i doubt id ever recommend a 13:1 ratio. I can see why you dont like torque gears but you cant over load your motor and with torque gears you can use more types of high speed motors to achieve you desired ROF
    18:1 26100rpm 24 RPS Ares/Shooter, Super Torque
    20:1 32800rpm 27 RPS TM EG300HC mtor
    http://www.airsoft-barracks.com/forums/topic/21653-motor-testing-eagle-force-md01-dyno/
    you can still make about 27rps with the right combo, and now you have a greater range of motors to choose the one that works best (personal preference)
    asuming these measurements are correct
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
  12. Protectionperfection

    Protectionperfection New Member

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    I have 2 choices for disabling full auto. Mechanical or electrical. I have looked into the mechanical and its very simple. The electrical part would be done via a mosfet. I am trying to determine right now which is the best way to go with that. I was thinking of simply just blocking the selector switch from switching to full and only going to semi.
    That was one thing I loved about my P* was the ability to have the burst function to change it to whatever I wanted for full auto.

    Spring:
    I planed on a PDI or Guarder spring and I currently have a 120 and makes my ICS m4 hit 367 so I was unsure if the gears and motor would be enough for a 130 or if a 140 would be needed.

    Piston:
    as far as the piston goes, I was thinking about using the same piston I have in my current ICS M4. it is the:
    ICS reinforced Polycarb Airsoft Piston featuring 8 steel teeth & bearing piston head
    http://www.commandairsoft.com/MC-169-ICS-Reinforced-Upgrade-Pom-Piston-Piston-p/mc-169.htm

    Barrel:
    6.03 Prometheus 509mm or the 550 and adding some type of barrel extension...

    Hopup:
    R-Hop with Systema bucking

    Motor:
    Lonex or SHS High Torque

    Everything else I am relying on the knowledge of AS members and recommendations. With the use of a Mosfet I could amp up to an 11.1 if need be.
     
  13. Archer627

    Archer627 New Member

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    If you build a DMR, you want to be able to get accurate shots down range fast. Especially if you build a counter sniper gun like PP is doing. Trigger response, since auto is not going to be used, is the best choice. You most definitely aren't going to overload a torque motor with speed gears on a m150. Lol. 18:1s don't overload a torque motor on an ms210. I use speed gears in everything and it works put fine. I strictly use Lonex motors, though.

    Polycarbs aren't the best choice. Use a nylon piston with 15 metal teeth. Lonex motor will be more efficient and torquier. Get a Lonex bucking. They fit on the barrels tighter than Systema buckings do and seal well with R hops. Longer isn't necessarily better. 455mm is the optimum length IIRC. Disable the automatic however you like. I think I'd do it electrically that way you can have another upper with a different spring set up.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
  14. Protectionperfection

    Protectionperfection New Member

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    Well this is strictly DMR only. I ahve 2 other ICS m4s, setup for just over 350 with .25 with average rof adn one for 330 with high rof... a G&P m4 getting built up to be a short CQB gun and a PTS Masada for my general purpose rifle adn a upgraded bar10 for SWS with an MP9 for MED
     
  15. Star_folder

    Star_folder New Member

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    When making a gun semi auto, you do 1 of two things. You either block the selector switch from moving to full auto on the shell, or, you do it electronically. Never modify the selector switch. The reason why is because of semi lock up, if you pull the trigger half way, and the piston only cycles half way, then when you pull the trigger again, you'll get nothing. Because you can't switch to full auto, you'll have to disassemble the gun to get it to start running again. By modifying the receiver, you should be able to simply undo the block, shoot the gun, then reinstall the block. If the selector plate is modified, you'll have to disassemble the rifle down to the gearbox to pop the ARL.

    The best bet is to get a computerized mosfet. If you get semi lock up, you can just switch to full auto, which is locked to semi, and keep going.
     
  16. Mighty_Mouse

    Mighty_Mouse New Member

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    I don't this is really an issue since the OP plans to use an ICS as his base gun. He can just use the spring release to fix the lock up if I'm thinking correctly.
     
  17. Protectionperfection

    Protectionperfection New Member

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    That was my thought as well. Wouldnt that fix any lock up issues?
     
  18. Star_folder

    Star_folder New Member

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    True! I had completely forgotten about that feature on ICS guns. Still though, Computerized mosfet is the best solution. Pushing the button in the middle of a fight will often lead to double feeds.

    But you're right, that would make it much easier.
     
  19. Uller

    Uller Active Member

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    ICS gears are actually pretty descent,atleast the older ones are.I have ran M130's and M140's on them before without issue.Turbo 3K motors are descent aswell,but you will need more power to push an M140 on one as rate of fire and trigger response is slow on an M140 at the voltage you intend to use.I would also go electronically for semi only.

    Unfortunately the only experience I have worth noting is with the ASCU fire controller,and they are not compatible with ICS split GB's.Fortunately however,ASCU is planning to
    make a fire controller for the ICS split GB.When,I dont know.They are a natural with the Speed airsoft adjustable trigger.I have one in my CA AR-10 and ASCU and I have my trigger pull adjusted down to around 3mm's or so.

    Go nylon piston,far less brittle than polycarb,and if your AOE is spot on,full metal racks are only optional.As has been said previously the important tooth is the release one.Im running a CA yellow piston in the same AR-10 on an M160 without issue.