Jay's new Bae build thread

Discussion in 'Gun Building, Modifications & Repairs' started by Jay_W, Jul 27, 2015.

  1. Jay_W

    Jay_W New Member

    202
    1
    Cleveland
    Okay so most of my work isn't documented or published just because I'm always doing customer guns that I'm not allowed to talk about or whatever... (contracts are a pain..) BUT I'm gonna document my new personal gun for you guys

    So I even using my limited edition 416 for about 8 months now and I love it. it's a 10:1 single sector and it's such a great field gun. But that's just it, it's a field gun and I'm getting tired of lugging it around indoors because as its setup it weighs 9.7lbs which is pretty heavy for indoor play. So for this gun, I'll be building a SBR and performance is obviously second to none in priority but the externals are going to be lightweight, compact, and extremely maneuverable. so this marks the beginning of me building my SBR style cqb gun.

    Here's what I got so far

    [​IMG]

    Shell is gonna be a gen3 retro arms v2 shell that I had laying around and never used since I went with a cradle in my 416, so it'll get used here.

    electronically I'll be running it on a btc mosfet, as of now it's the chimera but I'm considering swapping it out for my spectre just so I can store batteries easier

    compression set is pretty set in stone as of now, it'll be a modify bore up set with either a lonex or modify tappet plate.

    pistons a toss up, either a retro 8,9, or full metal rack depending on how much weight I want the piston to have.

    I'll be using an 8 tooth dsg gear because I don't want more than 350 fps and with the bore up I'll already be needing to use a standard bore barrel to keep me under
    That'll sit on a 14:1 bevel and spur

    motor is in the air, either a ZCI ht or one of the new asg 28tpa motors. this is going to depend on the pistol grip I use

    spring will be a systema 160 hopefully, if I can't find one then I'll use the systema 170 that I have and cut coils as necessary

    I still need bushings and bearings, yes bushings AND bearings. probably lonex doubles and a modify ceramics

    I'm not after ROF just because I never actually use full auto... it'll probably end up being either semi locked or 3rd burst anyways... all I want is trigger response and mobility from this little guy

    [​IMG]

    here's basically what i want for the outside except in FDE over OD, EPM's over hexmags, peq-15 over DBAL, and im not sure what kind of pistol grip, probably a tango down.
     
  2. Rushin

    Rushin Well-Known Member

    3,920
    32
    Kalamazoo
    Why go DSG for trigger response then? I assume you'll be running an 11.1? You could roll with 10:1s with some short stroked teeth.
     

  3. AirsoftRyan778

    AirsoftRyan778 Active Member

    675
    54
    Baltimore
    If you wind up switching to the spectre I would buy the chimera
     
  4. Jay_W

    Jay_W New Member

    202
    1
    Cleveland

    you're right, I could get away with just running the 10:1's but I've already got a gun running 10:1 singles and the trigger response is incredible, but It just isn't quite as aggressively snappy as a dual sector. Also, I've built too many dsg's to not have one of my own lol
     
  5. Rushin

    Rushin Well-Known Member

    3,920
    32
    Kalamazoo

    Heh, fair enough. The response of a DSG has always intrigued me, but not enough for me to make a money pit for one.
     
  6. LegacyAirsoft

    LegacyAirsoft You can say I tech a little... Moderator

    6,162
    38
    Massachusetts

    Im starting my third DSG money pit...

    Nice build. I'll be watching this thread.
     
  7. Wingman703

    Wingman703 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    5,547
    541
    Atlanta
    DSG's are totally worth it for the response, and the ROF is nice to have when you feel the need to show off your teching prowess.
    I would personally skip out on the retro arms pistons. RA has developed a habit of screwing up some things in their gen1's that they later fix in Gen 2's and 3's(like their V2 gearboxes). The current gen's teeth wear easily, and the heat treatment is uneven, and even stops after the teeth!
    If your after the response, go with the ASG motor. Will run cooler under long usage of semi, and will get a lower ROF/better response with it.
    Depending on your spring, you could run the 9t or 8t sector/piston. 350 is not too hard to hit on an 8t when everything is setup correctly(I had my 8t running at 360-370 IIRC on an SP190).
    Internals look pretty and solid(except for that rubbish aluminum(?) barrel), I'll keep an eye on this ;)
     
  8. OhioAirsoft440

    OhioAirsoft440 Member

    147
    0
    Kirtland
    What I'm doing for trigger response in my combat machine is dsg with all parts minus the sector it should run great
     
  9. OhioAirsoft440

    OhioAirsoft440 Member

    147
    0
    Kirtland
    Oops I was going to say stock parts
     
  10. Jay_W

    Jay_W New Member

    202
    1
    Cleveland

    I know exactly what you mean about the retro Pistons, I work at a store that carries them and I've had to remove almost 12 of them from inventory for that reason, as well as the back of the piston being split at the cast lines. I'm still going to install one, just because I have 2 rotting on my bench that aren't yet broken.

    I don't know how much experience you've got with the new asg motors, but they're larger than standard motors, imagine wrapping a zci ht in a layer of electrical tape, and then shoving it in a pistol grip. it'll fit in some with room to spare, others will be really tight and as a result will prohibit you from adjusting the motor height. I've got to figure out which pistol grip I want to use and make sure it has enough room to use it
     
  11. Sniper272

    Sniper272 Active Member

    1,001
    12
    Subbing to this. Cheers to the DSG trigger response master race!
     
  12. Jay_W

    Jay_W New Member

    202
    1
    Cleveland
    A brief update:

    I haven't gotten too much done along the lines of getting everything finished. I've decided on which reciever I'm using and I'll be ordering some external parts this weekend hopefully.

    Internally speaking, the Bore up kit is in and I've decided to give the modify tappet plate a try.

    I'll be using a full set of lonex double bushings as opposed to a mixture between bearings and bushings simply because I can't find the bearings I want.

    Now the retro arms shell... oh retro you yet to please me... I replaced my gen 3 shell with a new gen 3 shell because after further inspection, retro arms biffed. again. they gave me a gen 2 spring guide for a gen 3 shell. I know I know, it's not that big a deal but that's where your wrong! it's a huge deal! not really I'm just anal... there is however a fatal flaw with the gen 2 spring guides, they, A. didn't have anything on the back of them to allow you to grab them and place them i.e. a cut for an Allen key. and B they were merely pressed together which causes them to gradually fall apart on high stress builds. the gen 3's addressed both of these issues, which is why I felt the need to swap them.

    here are some pics to justify that I'm not crazy. you can see that the spring guide is already sort of splitting. especially since the guide has NEVER been used. Gen 2 is on the right in both pictures

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    I've decided to use a 9t rack on the 8t gear. reasons being that I want that piston heavy, and that I want the freedom to run a 9t should I choose to down the road. spring will still be swapped with a systema m160

    the spectre WILL be going into this box and the chimera will be going into my 416 to replace the spectre

    also, I'm going to use a 10:1 ratio for the trigger response, and because it's easier for me to get, paired with ideally the asg 28tpa unless it doesn't fit in my pistol grip in which case I'll be using a frankentorque that will be built at a later date. call me crazy, but I refuse to sacrifice new fancy parts for a less comfortable gun.

    Here's a brief update picture just because who doesn't like visuals?

    [​IMG]

    oh I forgot 2 things, 1 that trigger is going and a gen 2 retro trigger will be taking its place.

    and 2, my new old retro shell is for sale if you guys want it, $90 to your door step. it was literally never used, it just has the gen 2 spring guide. pm me if you want it

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Jay_W

    Jay_W New Member

    202
    1
    Cleveland
    so the 10:1's went in, as did the spectre. I still don't have a motor to run it, so I'm gonna give a spin on a 16tpa asg motor and see if it'll even pull. I don't have a spring for it yet either so the systema 170 is going to have to suffice until I get the 160. other than that the gearbox is pretty solid assuming that it will actually work once I fire it up.

    here's another picture of he completed box, just because I'm a firm believer of spices or it didn't happen

    [​IMG]

    once again, my other retro shell is for sale. check my above post for the details
     
  14. Jay_W

    Jay_W New Member

    202
    1
    Cleveland
    alright, so the new trigger is in and is the 28tpa. the 160 seemed to be a bit much so I've got a 140 with 2 seigetek spacers.

    the pinion on the asg motor was being a pain so I swapped it between a few and still not much luck, I'm currently using a seigetek pinion which I really don't want tan be using. I'll be picking up a ZCI hi torque soon to test. I think that the asg motor is actually longer than it should be, which is giving me these weird issues with alignment. the gun either sounds god awful, or it simply won't pull.

    another issue is that with my retro trigger the pull is ridiculously short and if the trigger is pulled slowly or not all the way it'll just cycle in full auto, even tho the gun is locked to semi auto. any help with that issue would me INCREDIBLY APPRECIATED.

    now for externals, I've had to change my frond end design due to he parts i wanted no longer being available and me getting my hands on a 12" pts centurion rail with accessories, so that'll have to do instead of the pws. I got a retro selector to match the trigger, a new pistol grip, and the stock and buffer tube. all I still need is the receiver set as well as the little parts that complete it
     
  15. Wingman703

    Wingman703 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    5,547
    541
    Atlanta
    The 160 was too much.. FPS? strain? why was it too much? a spaced M140 will be more stress then a bigger, spaced spring. and how did you fit TWO seigetek spacers in there???
    What brand pinon would you say the ASG resembles the most? SHS? ZCI? CYMA?
    Pick up an SHS for better meshing, if that's your issue.
    Are you sure your cuttoff is engaging properly? What brand are the contacts/cutoff?
     
  16. Jay_W

    Jay_W New Member

    202
    1
    Cleveland
    the 160 was straining the motor a lot. systems springs are EXTREMELY solid, and are basically under rated. the 140 is a shs and with the spacers it's more of about a 150. I'd use a 150, but i don't have one. Also, these aren't the spacers that go on the spring guide, these are aluminum discs that go inside the piston, they're only about 2mm thick.

    the asg pinion looks like a brand new g&p m120 pinion, but a lot harder and a little bit wider at the base. I'm not sure if that makes any sense or not lol

    and I'll note the shs pinion and add it to the list. but I'm pretty certain that the asg motor is longer than most other motors. I'll try to get a picture to demonstrate what I'm talking about.

    and I've got a btc spectre running the system, not contacts and a cutoff. it feels like there's a sweet spot where the mosfet doesn't care about what selector mode your in its just going to go regardless
     
  17. Wingman703

    Wingman703 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    5,547
    541
    Atlanta
    I understand your pinon analogy, good one.
    Oh, I had forgotten that BTC :D I'm kind of useless there, as I've never worked with them, but I guess check you settings and stuff?
     
  18. LegacyAirsoft

    LegacyAirsoft You can say I tech a little... Moderator

    6,162
    38
    Massachusetts
    I do know with BTC fets? For some weird reason, there is a position the micro switch can be in where it reads that you are pulling the trigger continuously, causing full auto in semi.

    Don't know why or how, but I have noticed this happening in my spectre as well.
     
  19. Jay_W

    Jay_W New Member

    202
    1
    Cleveland

    that's exactly what I'm getting. I know that chimeras and specters will both do this, but it seems that the shorter your trigger pull, the more you experience that problem. I did a little bit of filing to stretch the pull out a bit and it made the problem much better.

    so I think I'm on the home stretch as far as this gun is concerned...

    the asg 28tpa is kinda screwy... probably because it was an old 1st generation prototype that's seem some serious abuse, but it ended up getting pitched and replaced with a ZCI hi torque that's actually doing loads better.

    I got myself a m150 and that's doing great.

    the modify bore up got pitched and swapped with an old retro arms bore up kit except for some odd reason I accidentally installed a VFC nozzle instead of the retro nozzle

    that pretty much sums up the gearbox, it runs pretty well and it's fast as all hell but it's going to be semi locked so I could honestly care less about the ROF

    I do still need to chrono it tho. I think I'm shooting a fair bit hotter than 350 just by watching the bb's fly in my backyard. it honestly feels like I'm shooting a little more than 400 which is not good at all

    the receiver set that the gun is in is god awful and it'll be replace with a g&p receiver as soon as I get the money for the one I want.

    the hop up is currently an area of concern for me. I've got a custom cut lonex steel barrel in there now, and a flat hop inside of a vfc wheel dial hop up. for some reason it'll lug bb's left or right every once in a while, which could come down to the crappy angel custom bb's I was testing with (yeah, angel customs... let's just not go over why I was using those) or it could be that my vfc nozzle is a little bit chewed up. I'll test with different bb's first. I know it isn't the hop up because it works beautifully in my 416.

    now for the external problems.

    obviously the receiver needs to be replaced because the one it's in now is a WE age reciever that's saw its better days about 2 years ago. I'll be getting a g&p advanced type in the near future.

    I'm using a retro arms selector to match the new trigger and it doesn't work all that well with this reciever either.

    the outer barrel I have is a 12.5" mad bull steel barrel and it needs to go because it weighs a metric #*%! ton. I also wanna track down a SHS mini comp or a pts m4sdII flash hider. haven't decided on which one I want yet.

    here's a picture of the gun in its current state, not quite field ready, but close.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Sniper272

    Sniper272 Active Member

    1,001
    12
    Looks great! What rail covers?