Jumping into HPA in the near future

Discussion in 'Gas Powered Guns' started by SSgt_Burgin, Aug 17, 2015.

  1. SSgt_Burgin

    SSgt_Burgin New Member

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    I'm looking at jumping into HPA in the near future and after many hours on Google and Youtube I still a few questions.

    1. Are HPA guns worth the money? I know "worth the money" is a relative term. Will a HPA system perform better than an AEG after investing the same about of money in both builds?

    2. Full engine or cylinder replacement? For a basic field or CQB rifle are the upgrade options offered on an engine really needed over the less expensive drop in cylinder?

    3. SMP or Jack?

    4. Regulator, Tanks, hoses. Anything labeled for airsoft gets a huge price increases! Are there better and or cheaper places to get these than an airsoft store?

    5. Filling a tank? What is the most common way HPA users refill tanks?

    6. How long will a tank last me? On average, with a common HPA rifle set up, how long should I expect a singe tank to last? Is it normal to need a second tank for full day of play?
     
  2. Dehaka

    Dehaka New Member

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    NY
    HPA will work much better than a AEG (SMP wolverine drop in) consistent only downside being that cables. I fill my tanks at airsoft store here (im not in US) so I have only 2 near me. 1 Tank depend on size you're getting can last you like 2 full day games but you have to adjust it after that you're good to go. You have to dump a lot of mag (Im running mid cap) but 2nd tank is good to have if you can afford.

    But if you really want to have a nice setup you can go with tank GBB or Alyan. Prefer Alyan and say hello to low cap, mid cap, high cap or box mag :D

    You need a host gun SCAR/M4/416/417 for Aylan GBBR's with some tweaks inside it (you can't go back) and the setup you will be able to run HPA on a GBBR guns 100% consistent and blowback much like TippMann but better. It will take AEG mag just like Tippmann.


    I don't have clue about PolarStar, can't comment on that... but it should be like SMP.
     

  3. airsoftmaniacman

    airsoftmaniacman Active Member

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    Baltimore
    If you were to spend $600 upgrading your AEG, you would have a better performing AEG than a basic HPA engine, rig, and tank. (HPA engine + tank + rig = $300+$150+$150)
    I went with full engine, but a cylinder is usually more cost effective and practical for most users.
    Buy used, but do research before buying.

    Buy tanks from paintball stores. The regs and tanks tend to be more Airsoft specific.
    Most people go to their local field and use the paintball tank refilling stations. Others use scuba tanks or expensive home compressors. A few use specially built hand pumps.
    Depends on what system you buy, what parts you use for the barrel system, and how trigger happy you are. Do some research on Google. It's not that hard to find out what most users get depending on the system.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2015
  4. Bulldawg26

    Bulldawg26 Active Member

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    Atlanta
    +1 to what Airsoftmaniacman posted. I just have a little more to add in response to your questions...

    .

    You can make an AEG perform nearly or as well as HPA powered guns in some respects. The biggest difference is in barrel volume. With an AEG your barrel volume is limited to what air is contained in the cylinder between the piston head when retracted and the cylinder head (assuming a type 0 cylinder). With HPA systems, you can match volume to any barrel length. In DMR's, that makes a hugh difference. The other issue is that since AEGs are mechanical in nature, they have a higher likelihood of breaking down ... especially in a high stress build. Most of the time, if you have a failure in an HPA system, it can be fixed by reseting the FCU.

    One of the reasons why I switched to HPA is because I always seemed to be teching AEGs. Teching is fine when you have the time to do it but it is a pain when you are doing AEG repairs to have a gun to field the next day. Now I can work on AEGs when I want to ...not when I have to. In the long run, you will likely save money on AEG parts when you go HPA.

    I have a P* fusion engine and have been very happey with it. I also have several team members that decided to go with the Wolverine SMP or Hydra. The P* fusion engine has the advantage of having detailed settings that can be finely tweaked. It takes a little time but usually the results are worth it. If you don't want to spend a lot of time tweaking your systems, go with a cylinder replacement HPA system. Most have settings only for rate of fire and poppet dwell (FPS adjustment). The other advantage of a cylinder replacement system is that it can be installed in more gun bodies. The P* star V2 fusion engine seems to prefer VFC M4 bodies. If you have a more exotic airsoft gun, you may have to modify it for the FE to fit in it.

    Go with the SMP. It is tested. The initial reviews of the Jack have been promising but I have heard from retailers that the smaller solenoid on the Jack is more susceptible to being fouled with dirt and grit. If your gun requires an offset nozzle, get the Wolverine Hydra instead. You also might want to take a look at the Wolverine Inferno as well. It comes at a cheaper price point but has the same internal structure as the Hydra. You can later upgrade it to Hydra standards if you like.

    That very much depends on your setup. From what I have seen, Wolverine products seem to be pretty air efficient. If you decide to do an air efficiency P* build you can go a long way on one tank. I am running my P* at 55PSI to get 325 fps with .30g bbs (1.55J). I don't spam the trigger (I use 3 round burst) but I do shoot quite a bit during a gameday. With those settings, I typically go through @1500 PSI per an 8 hour game day. At that great shoot fest known as Fulda Gap, I emptied my 90 CI/4500 PSI tank after shooting approximately 8000 rounds. (it was a target rich environment). Hopefully, that will give you an idea how many rounds you can get out of a tank.

    I hope this info helps. PM me if you have any other questions.
     
  5. SSgt_Burgin

    SSgt_Burgin New Member

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    Here's what I'm looking at so far.

    The base gun will be an Apex Tactics Charlie 12 inch CQB M4. I chose this gun because it comes with a full metal body and rail, preinstalled 6.03 TBB, rotary style hop unit. Everything I was looking for with a price tag of only $200.
    http://www.airsoftgi.com/product_info.php?cPath=139_24_864&products_id=20501

    P*Jack
    I think that the price point of the jack is worth the trade off in customization over a full engine. Plus I've seen many of them in action and know what they can do.

    Ninja LPR / Amped Custom HPA rig.
    It should be setup and ready to go.
    http://www.ampedairsoft.com/amped-custom-hpa-rig-lpr/

    Ninja 90/4500 Carbon fiber tank.
    I chose this tank because it will be my only tank and I don't want to risk running out of air in the middle of a long day of playing. Also, at some point I plan on dropping a Jack in my M249 and feel I will need a larger to act as a support gunner.
    http://www.ampedairsoft.com/ninja-90-4500-carbon-fiber-air-tank-grey/

    Please let me know what you think.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2015
  6. Blair

    Blair New Member

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    Chantilly
    Love it. Great choices. For the rig, I recommend the Firebase instead. I also would say to use a 6.02 or 6.01 TBB just to get a tiny bit more squeeze on the BB.
     
  7. SSgt_Burgin

    SSgt_Burgin New Member

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    Why is the fire base better?
     
  8. Rushin

    Rushin Well-Known Member

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    For the volume you get with HPA, a 6.03 will give the best range.
     
  9. Blair

    Blair New Member

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    Chantilly

    I've never seen that since many of my teammates use HPA and the 6.01 users out range the 6.03 guys. It's more so dependent on the BB brand because BBs are never 6mm and companies make them different sizes. Another thing is that the companies that make TBBs never make them that bore size either, it's a range from one size to another due to quality control and they use the smallest size they can achieve as what that particular barrel they're selling is. We use elite force like most people which is sized at 5.95mm+\-.01mm. HPA physics work similar to real bullets and real bullets and barrels are very tight which is how you would want to replicate for accuracy and range.
     
  10. Kopis

    Kopis Active Member

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    I dunno how true that is blair. WBB seem to be a very popular choice with HPA DMRs.
     
  11. Rushin

    Rushin Well-Known Member

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    Actually the physics are the same whether it's HPA or AEG. The difference is that 6.01s are great for close range, full auto groupings, but wider bores do better with longer ranges. It also has to do quite a bit with the hopup.

    Actually, most BBs built to marui spec are 5.95, and the best diameter for the barrel is (around) .08 millimeters, thus the 6.03.

    They still don't work like real guns or real bullets, as rifles have the rifling in the barrel for stabilization, so you want as much power from the powder to go into propelling the bullet, which increases range.

    In airsoft, hopup = 90% range, barrel 10%.

    EDIT: Get a nice barrel like a prommy and you will find it actually measures exactly what it says on the tin.
     
  12. Blair

    Blair New Member

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    Chantilly

    The physics are substantially different due to the laws of gas expansion which is what real guns work off of.
     
  13. Angrypencils

    Angrypencils New Member

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    Wappingers Falls
    Okay, do you realize that an AEG and an HPA set up do the exact same thing? They both puff out a burst of air out of the exact same size nozzle. That burst of air is the same size assuming the projectile is traveling at the same speed through the same barrel with the same hop.

    Yes, the way they go about it is different. But an AEG is basically just an air compressor, and an HPA engine is basically a fancy valve for stored compressed air. Once that air travels through the nozzle, the physics are exactly the same, it does not matter what system you are using. The expansion of gas doesn't change just because of the system used to compress it.
     
  14. Blair

    Blair New Member

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    Chantilly
    It does because there is a pressure difference from HPA. AEGs are forcing air out kinetically whereas HPA systems release it naturally because of the pressure difference. HPA max range typically increases as opposed to an AEG because of this. This is also why fields measure in joules for HPA more commonly now. Gas systems overall will be better at propelling the BB because of the laws of gas expansion as said before. Saying HPA and AEGs do the same thing also means that GBBs do the same thing. They're all propelling a BB, yes, but the method of doing so drastically changes performance.
     
  15. Angrypencils

    Angrypencils New Member

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    Wappingers Falls
    The pressure is only increased if you increase it as the user, because they are regulated systems. This was mentioned earlier on the thread. But it does not change the laws of physics, the gas is still expanding the same way.
     
  16. Blair

    Blair New Member

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    Chantilly
    It does because there is a pressure difference from HPA. AEGs are forcing air out kinetically whereas HPA systems release it naturally because of the pressure difference. HPA max range typically increases as opposed to an AEG because of this. This is also why fields measure in joules for HPA more commonly now. Gas systems overall will be better at propelling the BB because of the laws of gas expansion as said before. Saying HPA and AEGs do the same thing also means that GBBs do the same thing. They're all propelling a BB, yes, but the method of doing so drastically changes performance.
     
  17. airsoftmaniacman

    airsoftmaniacman Active Member

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    Baltimore
    I was a chemistry major before switching to biology. From what I remember in my college analytical chem and physics classes....

    Technically, both of you are right. There is a slight difference, but neither of you touched on it.

    The build up of pressure is the key difference between the two. In most AEG systems, the build up of air pressure until peak pressure is reached is slower as compared to most HPA systems. This can mean that the initial acceleration and velocity of the BB, when it hits the bucking nub, is faster in a HPA system than an AEG, resulting in greater torque and thus rotational momentum.

    However, a well designed AEG system can match this HPA effect, and a low PSI HPA build can revert to a normal AEG pressure build up.

    Thus, BB retention becomes an important factor in controlling when the BB begins moving after a particular air pressure has been reached by the system.

    So no, the gas laws do not change when comparing AEGs to HPA. What changes is the pressure reached before the BB begins moving through the hop-up aka BB retention.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2015
  18. Rushin

    Rushin Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, thank God.
     
  19. SSgt_Burgin

    SSgt_Burgin New Member

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    Wow lol! Well if I decide I want a 6.01 tbb it will be an easy upgrade.