Motor/Gear upgrades

Discussion in 'Electric Guns' started by Skipjack647, Jun 20, 2015.

  1. Skipjack647

    Skipjack647 Member

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    I have a KWA Gen1 M4 with a 2gx gearbox in it and I ran it stock for a while and I want to get slightly more speed but mostly torque(trigger response). I run an 11.1v lipo and I dont want to get over 25 Rps. I shoot about 19-20 rps now with the M110 spring I replaced the stock M120 with. I want about 23-25 or anywhere in the low 20s Im fine with. I want good trigger response without getting really fast because it uses too much ammo and it sounds like a fart or a minigun and it isnt realistic for me. Granted, neither is 25 rps. People have told me SHS High Toraue and Lonex A2. Im thinking Frankentorque. I may upgrade my gears but the stock ones in the 2gx KWAs are really nice according to reviews and videos of them like ASTKilo23. So can anyone give me some motor suggestions or motor/gear ratio combos? Any help is appreciated.

    Thanks.
     
  2. Lefse

    Lefse Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    Let me be brutally honest; most serious techs don't take ASTKilo23 seriously at all and consider him an amateur at best. I recommend you disregard all of his "advice" and listen to the more knowledgeable techs that frequent this forum. You seem to have put some thought into this upgrade and done some research so I'll help you out.

    Personally I'd combine a Guarder ITU with SHS or ZCI 13:1 ratio gears and run it with a high discharge 7.4V li-po, that should put you in the low 20's with very good trigger response. I run this motor and gear combo in my M4 with an M120 and it does 33rps with a high discharge 11.1V li-po, with a 7.4V it should do 22rps, within your ROF goal.
     

  3. Skipjack647

    Skipjack647 Member

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    Is Guarder reputable?
    I would like to just get a motor to put me in my range, but if adding gears with a certain motor will significantly increase TR, I would be willing to do the work.

    If not, I can just put together a Frankentorque with a Matrix 3000 high torque, 32 tpa armature from Brill, and SHS pinion.

    Edit: I had some suspicions about him but he seems to do good work although I dont like some of his logic. Is TheAirsoftTech a good source or should I just run off the forum?
     
  4. TheInfidel23

    TheInfidel23 Resident Derp Supporting Member

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    Guarder is, yes.

    Lowering gear ratio is the only way to add significant gains in trigger response. You will notice a difference on a pure motor swap, but true gains are the gears' department.

    Brill armory no longer sells motor arms due to QC issues from the supplier.

    ASTkilo is a comedy show at best.

    TheAirsoftTech is an excellent source, but researching other video sources and forum sources is always good practice.
     
  5. Skipjack647

    Skipjack647 Member

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    Thanks for the youtube stuff.


    So focus more on lower ratios than motor for triggee response? Okay. For torque, what about a JG Blue for the torque-yness with SHS 13:1s on a 11.1v? The Blue Ive heard is really slow and the light ratio of gears should speed it up. What would be my rps?
     
  6. cascade

    cascade Member

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    Lowering the gear ratio will require more torque from the motor...motor and gearing should really be looked at as a pair. The JG Blue + 13:1 gear combo is probably one of the best setups you can do in an airsoft replica. On an 11.1v battery you can expect around 25-27 rps along with gbb-like trigger response.
     
  7. Skipjack647

    Skipjack647 Member

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    Thats a little high but Im fine with a little speed. I want 25 because its a perfect speed for me and I dont want to hit someone 15 times in a burst. In the close fields I play at, I dont want to cause any uneccesary pain or anything that could be taken as hosing, which I dont want to do at all. And saving bbs is a big thing as well.

    28 is a little high, what is a motor that would get me to 22-25 rps? Lonex A2?
     
  8. Lefse

    Lefse Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    "ASTkilo is a comedy show at best." Now, that cracked me up, it's true though, he only makes videos to humor his sponsors.

    Guarder is a relatively old brand actually, goes back to the "Systema days", when Systema seemed to dominate the upgrade parts market. Good thing Guarder was there to give them some competition. I really like my Guarder ITU, the pinion gear is a bit on the soft side, but apart from that it has performed beautifully, tons of torque, low power consumption, and overall very good build quality. It has an "SRC style" endbell, so there is no chance of the terminals shorting, and it's not as fragile as the silly plastic ring in Lonex motors. The Guarder ITU seems to be pretty much equal to a JG blue performance wise, but with higher quality.

    Why not just run it with a 7.4V li-po to get it within your ROF range?
     
  9. Skipjack647

    Skipjack647 Member

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    I already have two 11.1s and if can just get a notor to do so it would be easier and less work figuring what motor would work better with a 7.4 since Im already using 11.1s. And wouldnt a 7.4 give me "less" trigger response?
     
  10. Lefse

    Lefse Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    Lower battery voltage won't necessarily give slower trigger response, it's all about how much time the motor needs to complete a gearbox cycle. How quickly the motor reaches optimal RPM is also essential, that's why we use higher TPA motors combined with lower ratio gears. A high discharge battery will obviously give quicker motor acceleration than a low discharge battery, I recommend staying above 30 amps to get the full potential of the motor. A ZCI high torque should get you close to your ROF goal with an 11.1V li-po, or you can acquire a neo can and use the stock KWA armature. Using 16:1 ratio gears instead of 13:1 ratio gears will lower the ROF a bit and still give good trigger response, but might not run quite as smoothly and be quite as snappy. It will still yield much better trigger response than the stock setup.
     
  11. Skipjack647

    Skipjack647 Member

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    I would like to stick with an 11.1 since I already have them. ZCI high torque OR Matrix 3000 with KWA armature and SHS with 13:1s? What would that give me?
     
  12. cascade

    cascade Member

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    28 was a little high, i revised it to more like 25-27, and that would be on a full charged 11.1v (12.6v). RPS will drop off a couple rps as the battery discharges down past 11v. You can also go to 16:1 gears which will give you a little over 20. The difference between 20 and 25 rps when it comes to over-shooting someone is pretty minimal...they might catch an extra bb or 2 at worst.

    A lonex A2 will get you a higher rof than that on stock gears. Also a ZCI high torque is basically a JB Blue.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2015
  13. Skipjack647

    Skipjack647 Member

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    Okay. I see now.

    So would say a Lonex A2 and SHS 13:1s get me 25? If not, what would? 23-25 is my sweet spot.
     
  14. cascade

    cascade Member

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    On a 7.4v lipo yeah...a lonex a2 and 13:1s will be somewhere around that.
     
  15. Skipjack647

    Skipjack647 Member

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    Ok. What would get me that on a 11.1? Lighter gears?
     
  16. Compta

    Compta New Member

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    I'm on an shs ht and 13.1 gears. With 7.4 it feels like mid 20s and with 11.1 its around low 30s. Its a bit too fast for my taste but the response is phenomenal. I'm happy using just 7.4s so to hit what you want you might either have to go 16.1 gears or just break down and buy 7.4 lipos. This is also wired to deans and using a mosfet of course.
     
  17. Skipjack647

    Skipjack647 Member

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    Im on Deans and I will be installing a mosfet when I get the parts we are talking about, whatever they may be. My gun blows fuses on semi a lot so Im getting one because I like semi auto and they just help with everything. i want the trigger response that you can get with the gears but the stock gears are fine dirability wise. The only advantage I would be getting is the lighter ratio because the stock KWA gears are really good.

    I would like a motor gear combo, since the motor in my gun is the stock motor for the Gen 1, which mine specifically is about 12 years old and still runs great but I want to upgrade because I dont want it to just quit but looking at it seems fine. Upgrading gears apparently is the biggest factor in trigger response, so I want to upgrade those too.
     
  18. TheInfidel23

    TheInfidel23 Resident Derp Supporting Member

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    If you want mid 20's on an 11.1v setup...that's gonna be fun. You're into either frankentorque territory, or knocking back the gear ratio a little.

    Overall it would be best to get the ideal setup you want and just get a 7.4v. Much easier that way.
     
  19. Skipjack647

    Skipjack647 Member

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    Thays actually what a want:a frankentorque. Does Brill stock Chaoli 32 tpa armatures? I thought someone said they dont stock them. That with a Matrix 3000 high torque can and SHS pinion(what type?), I could get 13:1s and get 25 rps right? Im just guessing. I dont know how to guess rps.
     
  20. TheInfidel23

    TheInfidel23 Resident Derp Supporting Member

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    Nope, they don't anymore.

    That was me, in this thread.

    You want O type.

    Around there, yes.