Objective Battery Test Titan LION vs. Kypom LIPO vs. HV LIPO

Discussion in 'Electric Guns' started by Guges Mk3, Aug 16, 2020.

  1. Guges Mk3

    Guges Mk3 Well-Known Member Staff Member Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

    6,742
    4,087
    Minneapolis
    aotsukisho

    If I sent you some packs, can you do an objective review on them?

    Two TITAN LION, one a 2600 and one a 3000.

    I want to see if the 3K is the same as the one you got from me earlier and then compare them to a KYPOM 2600/2700mah Brick . Plus I have an old Turnigy Bolt 2S High Voltage and a KYPOM Cylindrical 1500mah pack that I suspect is a LION.

    You can keep the packs for your troubles if you do a write up.
     
    wetpee and aotsukisho like this.
  2. aotsukisho

    aotsukisho Well-Known Member

    550
    333
    Sure thing, I don't mind. I haven't been playing as much as before due to world situation reasons but at the very least I can run synthetic tests like how I did with the previous ones.
     
    wetpee likes this.

  3. aotsukisho

    aotsukisho Well-Known Member

    550
    333
    Package arrived safe earlier this week. Initial impressions and findings:

    [​IMG]
    We have some variety this time from different vendors

    [​IMG]
    Closer look at the batteries out of the packaging as many of them were new

    [​IMG]
    I did notice this one had a weird void in the heatshrink where a wire used to be? maybe

    [​IMG]
    Another oddity was the difference in the Titanpower packs. One was black heatshrunk with labels stuck on (which also started to split up top) and the other had clear heathshrink over black heatshrink with labels.

    [​IMG]
    Guges sent me a Turnigy Li-HV Bolt pack that was used, and already had a Deans style connector on it. Fortunately I had more of the same type of connector to use on the others to minimize test variance.

    [​IMG]
    Took a photo of the soldering mid-process

    [​IMG]
    Connectors are all changed to be identical

    [​IMG]
    Opening up the Kypom 1500mAh, there's two layers of heatshrink. Is this just a rebranded battery?

    [​IMG]
    Getting through the second heathshrink layer shows that it has some unknown brand of li-ion cell, but if the markings are accurate then it is a standard 18650

    [​IMG]
    Cutting through the Titanpower 2600mAh unsurprisingly shows that it also uses 18650 cells

    [​IMG]
    There are no real markings on the cells, so I will have to research these cells further.

    [​IMG]
    Opening up the Titanpower 3000mAh which is another 18650 based pack

    [​IMG]
    This one uses the Sony VTC6 line, 3000mAh 15A discharge. This puts the battery pack at a pathetically low 5C, usable only with basic unmodified AEGs. I am very interested on why they decided that the pack needed 16AWG wiring as with such a low continuous discharge they probably could have gone with 18AWG or even 20AWG.

    [​IMG]
    Quick wrap-up photo of the li-ion packs after disassembly

    I will follow up with some charge/discharge cycle results. Stay tuned
     
  4. Guges Mk3

    Guges Mk3 Well-Known Member Staff Member Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

    6,742
    4,087
    Minneapolis
  5. Lefse

    Lefse Well-Known Member Supporting Member

    6,154
    1,774
    Hm, I knew Titan had very optimistic specs on their battery packs, but that's basically fraud. :mad:

    Definitely explains why the Titan 11.1V "10C" "2600mAh" pack could barely keep up with even my dinky little Gens Ace 11.1V 25C 1200mAh stick li-po and was utterly humiliated by anything else I compared it to.
     
    JHat and Chow like this.
  6. aotsukisho

    aotsukisho Well-Known Member

    550
    333
    I ran several tests over this week, it's not scientific by any means but there were multiple data points to interpret. All cycles were done in a controlled climate environment kept at 65°F.

    [​IMG]
    Results for the impatient

    BlueMAX 3200mAh
    Actual capacity: 2895mAh, 10% variance
    Cell stated capacity: 2950mAh
    Average IR: 24
    For the BlueMAX li-ion cells from the last test, I did another test run to confirm that the charger was working within reason which it was. Note that the first test was using a discharge cutoff voltage of 3.0v, which is too high hence the low reported mAh capacity.

    Kypom 1500mAh
    Average capacity: 1472mAh, 2% variance
    Cell stated capacity: 1500mAh
    Average IR: 33mΩ
    This was the stick li-ion that used to be blue. It had fairly low ratings but the capacity statement is accurate. Notice on how one discharge trial run was done at 2A in order to show a fairer comparison as 6.4A discharge was relatively high compared to the larger capacity batteries tested - not like it mattered, as the battery performed worse during that run lol.

    Titanpower 3000mAh
    Average capacity: 2965mAh, 1% variance
    Cell stated capacity: 3000mAh
    Average IR: 15mΩ
    Larger capacity Titanpower li-ion pack. This one uses Sony cells so I am expecting accurate specs.

    Titanpower 2600mAh
    Average capacity: 2380mAh, 8% variance
    Cell stated capacity: 2380/2400mAh
    Average IR: 25mΩ
    Smaller capacity Titanpower li-ion pack, the one with the unknown cells.

    Kypom 2700mAh
    Average capacity: 2584mAh, 4% variance
    Average IR: 6mΩ
    Kypom lipo pack. Strangely enough both the li-ion battery and lipo battery are both "K6 series" despite differing chemistry, form factor, capacity, C rating...

    Turnigy Bolt HV 2400mAh
    Actual capacity: 1864mAh (inaccurate as stated above)
    Average IR: 5mΩ
    Used Turnigy Bolt Li-HV pack. This one should perform great seeing as how it's rated for 65C. I do not have a Li-HV charger at the moment so I will just charge this up to 4.20v/cell as normal lipo and run the discharge test.

    This ends my analysis of these batteries. Again, the sample size is not scientific but this gives you a good idea on what to expect. The unmasking of the actual cells in the previous post is helpful for determining actual quality (specifications aside). Speaking of which...

    This cell has information printed on its circumference so it might be just a different batch...but I found a better match, especially after looking at the results of my testing.

    [​IMG]
    https://www.18650batterystore.com/Sanyo-p/sanyo-zl2.htm
    Sanyo ZL2 18650 2380mAh 10A cell, the two Data Matrix encoded values printed on the heatshrink is different on both of my cells, and the same is true for the ones in the product photo.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Had to manually recreate these since the contrast was not good enough for my phone to scan. One is 8J11G8M842540014, other is 8J61GC8650540014. No matches on Bing or Google, so these are likely serial or batch numbers.

    This likely means that the 2600mAh battery is a whopping 3.8C in order to abide by the manufacturer recommended 10A continuous discharge.

    Final verdict.
    Titanpower 2s 2600mAh: 10A maximum discharge, barely even capable of reliably running an entry level AEG. Don't buy this.
    Titanpower 2s 3000mAh: 15A maximum discharge, bare minimum requirement of being able to run a stock AEG. Don't buy this.
    Kypom 2s 2700mAh: Actually not bad measurements, just with a slightly overstated capacity. Best battery out of the bunch by far.
    Kypom 2s 1500mAh: I am unsure about the cell specifications but higher IR than even the Titanpower 2600mAh so I would assume that this one tops out at under 10A continuous discharge. Double heatshrink is kind of weird. Would not recommend.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2020
    Guges Mk3, Gray., link0 and 2 others like this.
  7. Guges Mk3

    Guges Mk3 Well-Known Member Staff Member Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

    6,742
    4,087
    Minneapolis
    Well...time to unstock the 1500mah LION.

    IMHO...LION is not ready for the "enthusiast" players yet.

    Sadly...the Airsoft public has fallen for the hype on the Titan which is rather disappointing...
     
  8. aotsukisho

    aotsukisho Well-Known Member

    550
    333
    I agree, they are much better suited to relatively low drain 'high drain' devices like LEDs of flashlights/lasers and heating coils.

    Titan technically uses quality cells, but for the price they charge and the promises they make...no way. That 3000mAh one is barely suited for a stock gun at 15A continuous, and the 2600mAh has a low enough constant current rating for it not to cause warranty issues with those ridiculous "max 15C lipo" limitations lol.

    I will actually go and test ROF the next time I can get to a field and see how much each battery drops under sustained full auto.
     
    Wingman703 likes this.
  9. OPairoft

    OPairoft Active Member

    154
    63
    Bend
    Man, that’s crazy to have a 10A max....

    Had to argue with someone about using liions in rc cars or planes, he said they worked better then lipos...

    I called bs, they would have to be huge to get the amp output even remotely safe, or he was using the most dinkiest cars ever...

    Told him, good luck running one on a car that I have that the bear minimum is two 50c 5000 mah 2s lipos...

    He replied by saying my car was broken for needing that many amps...

    I replied back saying it needs that much when you want to move 10 lbs of car at 40-60 mph or launch it 20-50 feet in the air. And added a video from the company who makes the car.

    He hasn’t replied since
     
    Lefse likes this.
  10. aotsukisho

    aotsukisho Well-Known Member

    550
    333
    To be fair majority of cars don't draw that much, particularly the class-limited onroad with motor turn limits (17.5t brushless I think was one stock class) putting current draw well under 50A, probably under 35A for most racing. But yes I am well versed in high power systems...

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]



    Built this back in 2010...first one that I know of to use a Castle 1717 in a 1:8 scale E-Revo on 8s lipo and I think its curb weight was around 15-17lbs. This was a few months before Traxxas released the XO-1 1:7 supercar which commercially used the 1717 on 6s and famously could hit 100mph real world speed out of the box (after being electronically unlocked).
     
  11. Lefse

    Lefse Well-Known Member Supporting Member

    6,154
    1,774
    Welp, if the current sensor in my Leviathan mosfet is reliable, then my DSG M4 surpasses 100A peak current, I think it's had readings up to 140 amps or so and around 50 amps average current. That's well beyond the capabilities of pocket sized li-ion battery packs.
     
    aotsukisho and JHat like this.
  12. Ulster

    Ulster New Member

    12
    9
    Ventura
    WOW, thank-you for that very in-depth review of these batteries. This subject is a major issue/bug-bear for new players like myself.

    Yes, I'll raise my hand as one that when "researching" on Youtube I found more rave reviews about Titan (JetDF and other "airsoft influencers" ) than any other battery. That when added to Titan's own propaganda (which is rather slick and professional looking.... which high quality propaganda should be) it seemed like their batteries were the choice of most Airsofters. It was only after I found this forum did I hear any negative comments about these batteries. I must admit that Titan does have the Name Recognition game pretty tight. Frankly, I'm still trying to find other batteries that will work but not being an electrical engineer or having the time to devote hours upon hours learning all the inner workings of batteries (hence why I read these types of posts) I am still left wondering if brand X is as good as brand B. The search continues... But Guges Mk3... that is why the new players (myself included) go to Titan as a first (or as an upgrade) because of the Web presence of Titan and their excellent propaganda.

    cheers,
     
    aotsukisho likes this.
  13. aotsukisho

    aotsukisho Well-Known Member

    550
    333
    I have an update to the tests carried out prior, long story short I obtained another tool that is far more accurate in measuring snapshots of a battery's characteristics. Full explanation on Digitalcomplex here.

    Code:
    BlueMAX series (li-ion)
    Advertised spec: 3200mAh 30C
    OEM cell spec: Samsung INR18650-30Q, 3000mAh, 5C/15A continuous
    Measured cell ESR: 22.27-43.12mΩ (43.12 might be an anomaly, next highest is 33.31)
    Measured battery C/A: 7-8C, 21.0-24.0A continuous
    Updated verdict: I would go by the OEM cell manufacturer's recommendations, despite being measured as better-than-spec. 15A continuous means this is relegated to a basic lithium-based battery for a stock ferrous motor M120 or less AEG.
    
    Kypom K6 series (li-ion)
    Advertised spec: 1500mAh, 25C
    OEM cell spec: KAN 18650?, 1500mAh
    Measured cell ESR: 38.83-39.69mΩ
    Measured battery C/A: 10C, 15.0A continuous
    Updated verdict: The measured C/A is a bit convenient but this is in the same boat as the BlueMAX li-ion batteries, a simple stick for a stock AEG.
    
    Titanpower 2600 (li-ion)
    Advertised spec: 2600mAh, no C rating
    OEM cell spec: Sanyo UR1865ZL2, 2380mAh, 4.2C/10A continuous
    Measured cell ESR: 28.46-28.51mΩ
    Measured battery C/A: 9C, 23.3A continuous
    Updated verdict: Measurements were quite similar to the ones I got before. This is overpriced but fine for stock and very lightly modified AEGs.
    
    Titanpower 3000 (li-ion)
    Advertised spec: 3000mAh, no C rating
    OEM cell spec: Sony US18650VTC6, 3000mAh, 6.7C/20A continuous
    Measured cell C/A: 24.69-24.92mΩ
    Measured battery C/A: 9C, 27.7A
    Updated verdict: Measurements were worse than the ones I got before, this is in the same class as the 2600mAh one. Stock or lightly modified AEGs, but you are paying way too much money if you buy these retail. The OEM cells can be got under $4 or so apiece.
    
    Kypom K6 series (lipo)
    Advertised spec: 2700mAh, 40C
    Measured cell ESR: 16.07-16.67mΩ
    Measured battery C/A: 12C, 30.5A
    Updated verdict: Same as before, despite worse ratings. This one can drive stronger motors, but it's not quite as good as it claims itself to be.
    
    Turnigy Bolt HV series (lipo)
    Advertised spec: 2400mAh, 65C
    Measured cell ESR: 4.37-4.48mΩ
    Measured battery C/A: 24C, 56.6A
    Updated verdict: Very good battery. I currently use this in a DSG and it runs well without any noticeable sag in full auto. 
     
  14. Guges Mk3

    Guges Mk3 Well-Known Member Staff Member Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

    6,742
    4,087
    Minneapolis
    Would you mind me sending more packs for you to test?

    Anyone want to contribute an Airsoft Brand or a Tenergy pack for testing? If you do I will send you a new Kypom for your troubles.

    That is if it's okay with aotsukisho
     
    aotsukisho likes this.
  15. aotsukisho

    aotsukisho Well-Known Member

    550
    333
    That is fine by me.
     
  16. wetpee

    wetpee Active Member

    104
    44
    Libertyville
    I have 2 Valken Li-Ions. 2S and 3S, both rated at 2500mAh "35A Peak" and the Maple Armouries pack mentioned in my WIP thread. As soon as I get my kypoms from guges I'd have no problem sending these out for testing.
    Someone on facebook told me that the MAS packs are made by the guy at MAS... Perhaps they meant he re-wraps them? Could he be buying individual cells and combining them into larger packs?
     
  17. Guges Mk3

    Guges Mk3 Well-Known Member Staff Member Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

    6,742
    4,087
    Minneapolis
    These are all on the way to you aotsukisho:

    IMG_20201119_143103.jpg

    Notice the GEN 3 LIPO 1.2A/1200mah Nano-Tech that came out in 2004/5 is dimensionally the same size as the 2000/2200 Gen 6 Kypoms.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2020
    aotsukisho likes this.
  18. wetpee

    wetpee Active Member

    104
    44
    Libertyville
    Oh I nearly vented my 2S valken btw.. Reassembled a gun and accidentally bit down on the wires at the buffer tube without realizing -- plugged the battery in and it melted the wrap a bit. My small amount of knowledge tells me there's at least some performance or life-span loss, but I have no idea what to expect. Should I toss it (responsibly)? Should I rip off the wrap and show you guys the cells?
    20201119_223256.jpg 20201119_223308.jpg
     
  19. aotsukisho

    aotsukisho Well-Known Member

    550
    333
    Sorry to hear about the accident, I would assume some permanent capacity loss and IR increase due to heat damage in the best case scenario. The safest option will be to discharge the battery very slowly down to 0v/cell, then cut the leads and submerge in salt water for a few days and discard.

    If you want to confirm the OEM cells as the Samsung INR18650-25R that would be helpful.
     
  20. dajogejr

    dajogejr Member

    30
    19
    Detroit
    I've got Valken Lipo i could send you once my batteries from Guges get here early next week if you're interested.
     
    aotsukisho likes this.