Featured R-Hop isn’t working

Discussion in 'Gun Building, Modifications & Repairs' started by Nitren, Nov 24, 2021.

  1. Nitren

    Nitren New Member

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    Panama City
    Hi, I have two Tippmann Recon AEGs, one I upgraded with a ZCI 6.02 x 363mm inner barrel, an elvish tac r-hop patch, elvish tac s-nub, and a ProWin hop-up chamber, patch was glued with Loctite super glue gel control. The second is almost stock. All that it has is a Modify Baton Ryusoku flat hop nub and I flat hoped the bucking. Both where shooting 0.28g bb. When testing the R-hoped one I shot 10 rounds at ~150 and only hit once, so I repeated it and shot 10 more rounds and hit the cardboard one more time. When I tested the second one with the flat hop at ~150 I hit the target 9 out of 10 times with a 14 inch grouping… So what did I do wrong? What do I need to try to fix it? Thank you for your time.
    and the picture isn't working... :(
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  2. Ben3721

    Ben3721 Well-Known Member

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    To clarify is this a accuracy issue or feeding issue?

    What bbs are you using?

    Your barrel choice isn't the best unfortunately. Zci struggle to make perfectly straight barrels. The o ring cutout in the front tip of the barrel causes a slight deformity inside the tip of the outer barrel, causing accuracy issues.

    A laylax barrel would have been better. Pdi and higher end lambdas are alright too.
    After that, lapping would be the only way to get better accuracy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2021

  3. Guges Mk3

    Guges Mk3 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    And this is why I don't recommend R-Hop. It is often finicky, limits ammo selection and it has to be perfect for it to consistently work...

    Versus a simpler ML setup that give you 90% of R-Hop Capability, flexibility in ammo and easy to tweek to get it to work consistently.
     
  4. Ben3721

    Ben3721 Well-Known Member

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    There's also the Elvish drop in r hop kits.

    Flat hops have been my go to since they can be done on any setup for less than 7 bucks.

    I don't think the rhop is to blame here in this thread tho.
     
  5. Guges Mk3

    Guges Mk3 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    I am not so much blaming, rather the R-Hop unit is not new player friendly. You really need to know how the "system" works. And if you have no clue...you can't trouble shoot it.
     
  6. Nitren

    Nitren New Member

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    Panama City

    It is an accuracy issue, I’m using EMG bio 0.28g bbs (only because when I bought them I could not find Elite Force bbs), and I chose the ZCI because I had herd good things about their barrels as well as they were the cheapest “upgrade” barrel that I could find.
     
  7. Nitren

    Nitren New Member

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    Panama City

    I assume ML means Maple leaf, and I bought a ML Macaron bucking but the lips would not hold the bb causing feeding issues. I would like to try an ML setup but have never gotten around to it/could not find the nub.
     
  8. Nitren

    Nitren New Member

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    Panama City
    If I cut the r-hop patch out do you think that would allow me to test the barrel with a flat hop?
     
  9. Guges Mk3

    Guges Mk3 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    For the ML packing to work (AKA, Rubber/Bucking...etc) it hs to seat on the barrel window. Any misalignment and it will distort the opening to prevent seating of the bb.
     
  10. Nitren

    Nitren New Member

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    Panama City
    I cut the r-hop patch out and installed the flat nub into the barrel and it worked just fine. So I think I glued the patch in wrong or something.
     
  11. Pharaoh

    Pharaoh Active Member Supporting Member

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    I had an rhop done for me by a reputable custom builder, I won't mention names but he is highly regarded and been mentioned in a positive light on this site. The first one would constantly over hop everything. I sent it back to him and he said he had to redo it because I left the hop down after a game and it deformed the patch, I needed to back it all the way off after each day of play...he fixed it and sent it back.......lonex hop, lapped and polished zci barrel, rhop...all as one drop in unit...all in all...I'm not impressed......I get the same results or better with a flat hopped G&G green, lonex hop, and zci barrel....I use almost exclusively G&G .28 and .32 bio BB's...so maybe I would only be seeing benefits if I use a heavier weight, or if I wanted to lob the .32s....anyway, I think I'll stick to flat hopping, I can do it myself. Of course my experience could all be user error.

    Note: This post isn't knocking the gentleman who did my r-hop. I'm not implying he did anything wrong, his work appears really good. This is just my experience with an r-hop. I consider him reputable and I still do business with him.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021
  12. OutlawAirsoft

    OutlawAirsoft Active Member

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    What are y'all using to flat hop? I've tried several methods and haven't settled on one.
     
  13. wetpee

    wetpee Active Member

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    @Pharaoh You should ask him what material was used for the patch. If its overhopping even when hop is "off", that means the patch is protruding into the hop window still. I can definitely see how leaving the hop turned on for long periods of time could cause some materials to stay protruding into the window even if the patch was set perfectly on initial install. I imagine he didn't use silicone, or perhaps the glue came loose.

    @Nitren Installing an Rhop patch is not exactly simple. It takes some trial and error learning how to set it. Basically, you need to make sure the patch fills the whole window as perfectly as possible and absolutely nothing can protrude into the barrel. No glue. No patch material. It is highly advisable to find some sort of tube or rod or something you can safely insert into the barrel without damaging it. Outer diameter of this tool should be as close to the inner diameter of the barrel as possible. I think 6mm silicone tubing from mcmaster carr should do the trick. I think there's also rhop tool kits available on shapeways. I'm about to get into rhopping myself after lots of research and discussion with other guys who've been doing it for awhile. Theoretically, it is the "best" hop up solution.

    Using Sugru has been a somewhat popular method only because its much easier to work with, and Sugru's abrasion resistance is very low such that any protruding material just gets worn away after some use and the patch "breaks in", but it also doesn't last very long because of this. Having a break-in period on anything can be a sign that it wasn't made to fit perfectly in the first place. I'm not certain of the chemical resistance properties with Sugru, like if it would get damaged from cleaning the barrel with alcohol or swell up from using silicone oil. Silicone patch will definitely resist these chemicals. I've definitely swelled up a guy's rhop patch when cleaning. I'll be getting that one back soon to correct it and I'll try to figure out what material it was.
     
  14. Pharaoh

    Pharaoh Active Member Supporting Member

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    Yes, the patch was protruding into the window still with the hop all the way "off". I didn't realize at the time that I needed to back off the hop every day after usage. I'm not sure what material he used. It functions now. I just haven't seen any performance gain over my flat hopped ones. Yes, I can get more hop if needed, but if I'm not currently shooting heavier than .32s and a flat hop does fine with those then I'm not sure the benefits. Also, no real benefit that I've seen in terms of groupings either over my flat hops.
     
  15. Nitren

    Nitren New Member

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    Panama City

    This is how I flat-hopped mine.
     
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  16. wetpee

    wetpee Active Member

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    Like I said, theoretically Rhop is "best". A standard packing or flathop allows for sharp corners and pockets that the air can fill, which creates turbulence and reduces pressure behind the BB. Rhop won't necessarily affect accuracy so much as long as the hop solution is still able to apply enough backspin for the given BB weight at a given velocity achieved before the contact patch when either is applied evenly in a "top-dead-center" fashion. My presumption is that the gains mostly have to do with efficiency in the movement of air and, thus the BB, losing as little FPS as possible while still applying plenty of backspin. Less wasted air (one of the greatest limiting factors in an AEG) and less obstruction to the path of the BB, equates to less velocity loss per amount of backspin. Also, when the whole hop window is sealed off in this fashion, it's pretty much a guarantee that no air is escaping through it. In something like a DSG, TSG, or DMR, where peak pressure wave is super high, this is actually quite essential. Outside of those applications, its just a further measure to ensure consistency because the same amount of air is used for each shot and there's less discrepancy for how much is lost to inefficiencies in the system. It's something you have to spend time perfecting and then once you get it down it's no longer a hassle and yields unquestionably better performance. Whether that boost is worth it for any particular application is up to the user, but in my eyes, it's worth knowing how to do if you're reasonably invested in this hobby.

    There are quite a lot of solid drop-in and simpler DIY solutions available and compared to the best of those, Guges' estimate of "90% of Rhop" is a reasonably accurate statement. I've been a maple leaf super macaron and MR. Hop guy myself but there are situations in which those products require significant modification to utilize, at which point I've decided it may be worth it to start doing custom Rhops instead. The ML packings frequently are too thick in the "shoulders" where it meets the breech end of the barrel, and/or too long in the feed lips. Certain barrels, most notably stock CYMA, and other Chinese brand barrels, as well as stock G&G aluminum barrels have not been compatible with the ML packings in my experience. Having to check compatibility in the first place is kind of a waste of time considering you can fit an Rhop patch to any barrel with any size hop window, and in fact is the only way you will fully utilize barrels with larger hop windows like krytacs and some aftermarket barrels. Depending on the situation, I've had to remove material from a ML packing's feed lips, remove material from the breech end of the barrel, or both. There a couple factors determining which method should be employed. Nozzle length and shape are two of them.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021
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  17. Pharaoh

    Pharaoh Active Member Supporting Member

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    Maybe I'll do some more testing with my r-hop then. The theory behind it does make sense to me.
     
  18. Nitren

    Nitren New Member

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    Panama City
    I had bought a ML macaron and the lips where to short, thus not able to hold the bb.
    But what your saying is that ML buckings are to big in to fit in/on some barrels/hop-up units?
     
  19. wetpee

    wetpee Active Member

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    What do you mean it wasn't able to hold the BB? And was it a "Macaron" or Super Macaron? The "Macaron", as it's now referred to by some retailers, is not actually a Macaron. Its original name was Monster and it's a much older design. I'm not sure if those are still in production but I think the name was changed specifically to confuse consumers so they might buy overstock of the old model. The Super Macaron and other newer models use a different material.
    Correct. At least with Super Macaron and MR. Hop models. Many times you have to force the hop chamber to line up with the notches on the barrel. Sometimes it will be fine, other times the rubber bulges into the chamber too much and prevents BBs from being pushed past the feed lips.
     
  20. Nitren

    Nitren New Member

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    Panama City
    Sorry for the text in the video, I made it to show a friend. Also when the bb is dropped in to the chamber that is not the ML bucking. https://youtu.be/1leuEg9XEE4
     
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