Tappetless cylinder head: New product, old idea.

Discussion in 'Gun Building, Modifications & Repairs' started by Spacemonkey, Sep 3, 2021.

  1. Spacemonkey

    Spacemonkey New Member

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    https://aztechinnovations.com.au/products/apache

    I can't really see too much of an advantage using this, in fact it looks like you get a small loss in fps. Possibly remove the tappet plate as a point of failure? I had read that this isn't the first time someone has tried this but information regarding why it didn't catch on is sparse.
     
  2. ma_airsoft

    ma_airsoft Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    Its a cool idea if it works and means I dont have to play with tapper timing on DSG builds. time will tell as Im sure someone will experiment if not me.
     
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  3. Guges Mk3

    Guges Mk3 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    This tells me lots...

    "How does a perfect seal and no tappet plate or return spring sound?"

    Perfect Seal - They don't understand fluid dynamics (Pressure is a fluid) and you don't need to do it in Airsoft at the nozzle cylinder air tube level if they are matched well.

    Sound - Tappet plate and return spring is not a major sound contributor in an AEG mechbox for noise pollution.

    Poor market research - And with the "lack" of any production standards...how many models can "actually" use this?
     
  4. ma_airsoft

    ma_airsoft Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    to be fair, i dont think they were being literal with the sound thing. I took it to be more of a “how do you feel about not needing a tappet plate”
     
  5. Guges Mk3

    Guges Mk3 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Ah...now that you mention it and I reread it...it's phrased in a rhetorical way versus literal way...I can see that now.
     
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  6. Squad144

    Squad144 Active Member

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    My tappet plate refuses to stay in the mech box. I would love to ditch that thing! I'm not sure this will work as well as some people think though... Certainly a great idea that would fix some problems but may create others. I believe TheAirsoftTech has gotten ahold of one of these so look out for a video covering this product!
     
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  7. Ben3721

    Ben3721 Well-Known Member

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    So apparently it has a value in it that makes it only let air past once it is all the way forward. Kinda like the SMP hpa engine nozzle.

    However this leads to a very very bad flaw, if the nozzle isn't able to chamber a round before the piston drops it will delay the piston and cause pme within the next shot. Basically running anything over 30rps and anything besides your best midcaps will result in pme a few times a day.

    That alone ruins this concept for higher rps guns. Getting pme at 30+ rps isn't a fun experience.
     
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  8. OutlawAirsoft

    OutlawAirsoft Active Member

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    I think it would be worth a try anyway. I'll be throwing together a dsg build here in the next couple months, maybe I'll pick one up. Dsg is the only practical application I can think of... the tappet system is not usually a major problem in a standard build.
     
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  9. OPairoft

    OPairoft Active Member

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    Would be interested in it for my Prowin/PGC shell since the tappets are relatively proprietary and it’s a pain to mod normal ones.

    But at the price they want for it and from the issues I have heard about from testers, I think modding Guarder/Retro Arms tappets would be cheaper and work better.
     
  10. Aztech Innovations

    Aztech Innovations New Member

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    Arundel
    We have built countless DSG's using the APACHE and they work well indeed at the high rates of fire. Using the included 0.8mm spring for DSG is recommended.
     
  11. Aztech Innovations

    Aztech Innovations New Member

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    We have taken into account all the feedback from the testers as that was the purpose, to find issues and address them which we now have done. Really happy with the final product now.
     
  12. OutlawAirsoft

    OutlawAirsoft Active Member

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    I might still have to try one. If only it wasn't so expensive.
     
  13. Spacemonkey

    Spacemonkey New Member

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    Auckland
    Any feedback on what will happen in case of a jam where the nozzle doesn't go all the way forward? Does the cylinder teeth and sector gear get damaged?
     
  14. Aztech Innovations

    Aztech Innovations New Member

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    Arundel
    Air will still escape so won't damage the teeth and will try clear it in the next rotation.
     
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  15. Spacemonkey

    Spacemonkey New Member

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    Awesome, thanks for that. I have another question, do you think the Apache is less prone to misalignment problems caused by upwards pressure from the BBs and a strong/new/not-broken-in mag spring than conventional systems?
     
  16. Ben3721

    Ben3721 Well-Known Member

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    So is it not a valve as we thought and just a choke of resistance to have the nozzle move forward? There is obviously pros and cons of either design. One being some air loss, the other air jams if it fails to chamber before piston drop.


    Nice to see you on the forum by the way, welcome. We appreciate new products like this a lot.
     
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  17. Aztech Innovations

    Aztech Innovations New Member

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    Ye
    Yes it acts like a choke since the air passage is blocked only initially, not for the entire duration but due to the extremely small time taken for the nozzle to move forward, the amount of air discharged before full forward position is insignificant. The one thing that needs to be taken into account is the added volume in the APACHE when working out your voluming. For example if you calculated you require a 50% port, you may need to increase that to 55% to 60% port if you want your volume perfect.

    Thanks for the welcome! We always are trying to come up with new ideas and products. We got sick of breaking pistons so had to design and make our own that does all we need it to.
     
  18. Ben3721

    Ben3721 Well-Known Member

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    Where can we get these for a m4 in the USA? I'd love to test one out. It sounds like a good product. I'd be testing it out at about 40rps at 400fps, so it would definitely be cool to see how it handles.
     
  19. Aztech Innovations

    Aztech Innovations New Member

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    Arundel
    We can send them out to the USA and Evike have placed an order but we are yet to ship to them yet. We have tested it up to 75RPS at 400FPS and handled it no problem.
     
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  20. Spacemonkey

    Spacemonkey New Member

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    Auckland
    Is the nozzle more rigid than conventional cylinder head/nozzle combos? Possibly reducing mid cap syndrome?