What gives!?

Discussion in 'Staging Area' started by NorsemanSDD, Oct 13, 2018.

  1. NorsemanSDD

    NorsemanSDD Well-Known Member

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    https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Crosman_DPMS_SBR_Full_Auto_BB_Air_Rifle/4571#8921

    https://www.evike.com/products/78562/

    Ive been looking at GBBR’s for training purposes. But there just so damn expensive! Maybe use it in a airsoft skirmish now and again. But they are woefully outgunned against AEGs and HPA rigs.

    I run across a video on youtube of a Crosman .177 M4 bb gun. Yah OK I click on the link..... My mind is blown! Its a gas blow back. The mag takes 2.... yes 2 CO2 powerlets! It comes with a speed loader and angled foregrip! Shooting 450 fps! And the price! Under 200 bucks!

    This is just another example of airsoft highway robbery!

    The GHK is 520 bucks.

    Then add a angled foregrip, CO2 mag, and a speed loader. Your OVER 600 bucks!!!

    What a bunch of horse manure.....
     
  2. HopRanger

    HopRanger Active Member

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    I agree that gbbr has been attractive for some indoor games and for overall functional training but price of entry is high. Although most gbbr are full metal body vs the crossman plastic body. Maybe if they made gbbr in lower quality plastic body and retain the same function it would be a little cheaper?
     
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  3. NorsemanSDD

    NorsemanSDD Well-Known Member

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    Back in the day a metal body for like a TM with markings could be had for like 80 bucks?

    If you add the 80 bucks to the Crosman? Your up to about 260 bucks? Less than half the cost of a GHK with same/same accessories.

    And I have a sneaking suspicion that little crosman is just going to run and run and run.
     
  4. NorsemanSDD

    NorsemanSDD Well-Known Member

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    Your point?
     
  5. NorsemanSDD

    NorsemanSDD Well-Known Member

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    Ok thx! Does the WE hold up to CO2? Ive not heard good things about WE GBBRs.
     
  6. HopRanger

    HopRanger Active Member

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    Another option is the g&p gbbr challenge kit. Evike sells it for $230.

    Is co2 a requirement? Functional training shouldn't require it unless recoil is a consideration. Just for the fps?
     
  7. NorsemanSDD

    NorsemanSDD Well-Known Member

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    Im just trying to compare apples to apples. The ability to shoot Co2 powerlets is about a 60 dollar mag upgrade in airsoft. If its offered at all. And everyone Ive watched who has reviewed a GHK with Co2 likes the added kick the blowback offers.

    It must be stated that the Crosman comes out of the box with a Co2 mag that holds not one but TWO powerlets unlike airsoft. And green gas isnt even an option.

    All for 180 bucks. I dont think this makes it “just a plastic bb gun”. If the internals hold up to a two powerlet Co2 system.

    The challenger kit Evike offers is an old Western Arms or Tanio Koba system. Its not on par with the GHK and the ability to utilize Co2. Plus? You have to put the damn thing together which may include filing!

     
  8. NorsemanSDD

    NorsemanSDD Well-Known Member

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    I guess we need a video of the bb gun.

     
  9. Guges Mk3

    Guges Mk3 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Not a very good one. Back in the Day the HurricaneE Metal bodies ran for 120-150.00 each they never were $80.00

    I have a suspicion the Crosman won't. Knowing their history of CO2 powered Airsoft/177 it will fail sooner than later.

    Another thing, is what is the point of recoil? In Real Steel we try to move away from it in Airsoft/177 people want it? I don't get that at all...
     
  10. NorsemanSDD

    NorsemanSDD Well-Known Member

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    I have a Crosman Co2 pellet gun in my barn that is 20 years old, that I use to shoot pack rats with it. Ive never cleaned it, the barrel is rusty and it shoots fine.

    What is the point of recoil? Only an American would ask that. People who do not have the right to own real firearms? Want a replica with recoil....like a real firearm. Or people who want something that replicates realism in their training.

    A GBBR is way more realistic than a AEG. A GBB pistol is way more realistic than a AEP or a fixed slide.

    I personally own lots of guns and enjoy shooting them over an AEG anyday. But I do enjoy my GBB pistol probably the most of all toy guns I own. I enjoy the kick in my hand over nothing.

    Your mileage may vary....
     
  11. HopRanger

    HopRanger Active Member

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    I have observed this as well. High ROF, low recoil and electronic "features" are things that real steel has be aiming for assuming no compromise on external ballistic performance. Airsoft wants the range and flat-ish external ballistics that real steel has.

    The key here is that all training involves some compromise with a focus on what is available at the present. The 5.56 round is not a hard recoil round and I would not believe that green/red/CO2 gas is taking away or adding more to the training as muscle memory for function checks, reload drills, trigger discipline and the mental discipline in high adrenaline scenarios. I'd group lower recoil to the same compromise as not having muzzle flash or loud report just like how most live fire training involves hearing protection which is not realistic in many touted fight/flight scenarios.

    In the end, all the above options give you a platform to train more realistically than AEGs. (PTW aegs are the next closest) I agree cost for gbbr doesn't make them the easy choice. If my requirement is to build a training platform with the same ergonomics as my real steel, then I would value the challenge kit so I can have the same furniture, optics, even the same charging handle. I have heard that the WA system does allow more compatibility with real steel parts than the WE.
     
  12. NorsemanSDD

    NorsemanSDD Well-Known Member

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  13. HopRanger

    HopRanger Active Member

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    If it takes more than one powerlet to sustain 25-30 rounds than I guess two is better than one before I change mags. I don't enjoy buying any mag over $15, real or otherwise. But we also don't let gas mags hit the ground if you subscribe to that type of mag changes in the real world.
     
  14. Guges Mk3

    Guges Mk3 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    A 20 year old Crosman is no comparison to an 177/Airsoft based bb gun.

    Your old Crosman was made to work and look like something else as a secondary benefit.

    Unlike this DPMS item which is made to look like a AR, but is a bb gun. Crosman in this market has been ~0-14 (including Airsoft projects) with phenominal successes, mediocre success, yeah they got a few..

    If it takes two jets to power the system...its a very inefficient gas hog. But, then it's not a very refined item at $200.00, i.e. with the fake bolt cover sliding back and forth over the gas system housing. 4 years ago in Taiwan, I saw something similar as a prototype and a P226 as well. If this is what I think it may be...there could be other variants coming.

    Doing a little more research...no Hop-Up too. This thing is only going to lob bbs 80 feet, unless of course if you apply more angle.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
  15. slappomatt

    slappomatt Member

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    are there any steel BB guns that have hopups?
     
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  16. Guges Mk3

    Guges Mk3 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Not adjustable ones...A few of the KWC uses them, but they are more of a bb retension as primary role and hop-up as secondary role.

    Plus, if the bb shooter can also shoot pellets...it definitely does not have hop-up.
     
  17. adas1223

    adas1223 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, The BB gun may be cheaper, but you have to look past that when looking for an airsoft varient of a reliable gun.

    A reliable sub $200 carbine is non-existant. you could however get an smg kwa mp9 or mp7 which you may find under $200 -magazines.

    The only m4 gbbrs i can recommend are the ghk or TM mws. forgot WE, kwa, wa. Although they do have wa clones for cheap. even polymer ones.

    occasionally i see people selling their challenge kit for $100, and they make great bases because the externals are very solid (-charging handle, bolt lock, trigger)

    steel parts are fairly cheap
     
  18. NorsemanSDD

    NorsemanSDD Well-Known Member

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    Thats the whole point. Why do I have to look past the ridiculous price gap when I look for a “reliable airsoft variant”?

    Example:

    Hi! Im Bob the weekend recreational shooter.... I own a DPMS M4 and love to shoot it at the range. But sometimes my wife spends my ammo fund on groceries and diapers! But I still want to shoot, but need a cheaper option than .223. Hence the reason why Im looking at a full auto bb gun for 180 bucks. I looked at a airsoft M4 made by GHK but after I buy a couple of mags for it Im at about 650 bucks! Thats not much less than what I paid for my REAL one! Im looking at airsoft or bb guns to help SAVE money!

    Lets face it, if “Bob” is not a die hard airsofter? Why should he drop big money on a GHK M4? He is simply looking for a cheap alternative to his real steel rifle for plinking at the range.
     
  19. adas1223

    adas1223 Well-Known Member

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    Its a sad truth. Im taking an educated guess that its because airsoft gbbrs have more moving parts.. err.. parts in general, than a 177 airgun. (bolt, nozzle, valving etc)

    Its also sad, that i would rather buy a $1700 airsoft recoil gun versus a recoiled 177 airgun. heck i'd buy the AAF m4 for $1100 too before a 177 air gun. why!? not sure if its the actual parts, or the competetive nature of the airsoft market. im sure its both.
     
  20. slappomatt

    slappomatt Member

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    you can literally build a complete real steel ( el oh el ) m4 for significantly less than the entry price alone for that GBBR. guys are doing all sale priced builds sub $400. for the entry price of that gbbr you could have a real M4 with iron sights mags and some ammo. considering the junk quality of airsoft parts they are really kinda over priced. esp GBBR. but then thats not news to anyone.
     
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