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Which do you prefer over all:

  • GBB M9 Hi-Capa

    Votes: 3 50.0%
  • GBB M2011 Hi-Capa

    Votes: 1 16.7%
  • Neither

    Votes: 2 33.3%
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
NOTE !! : this is NOT a "Hate Thread" for Brands or Types. Lets be analytical and share.

This is just out of curiosity, WHY is there no Popular Love for the M9A1 or A3 (Military model) in Airsoft Game Play? Other than the 1911 and 1911A1, the Beretta M9 has been the third LONGEST in use Semi Automatic Pistol in the US Military from 1985 STILL to today! And it is the sidearm of many other nations around the world too.

As a Pilot in the USAF amd Reserves, I was issued my first M9A1 in mid 1985, the USAF got them first in small quanitiies for pilots before the Army got theirs universally in late 1986 - mostly in 1987/8, believe it or not, the USAF was still issuing S&W .38Spl revolvers to pilots and MP's (AF Spl Ops, like the PJ's, AF Comando's and Forward Air Support/Scouts had 1911A1's) I still love the Beretta M9 (PT-92), though I have several modified Taurus P-92's for Combat Matches. World-famous Combat shooter Massad Ayoob of Wilson Combat guns, still prefers the M9/PT92 over the 1911A1 and clones.

I have two M9A3 (Navy Spl Ops models) WE Tech's, one nearly 4 years old and a 1 year old one, and a SRC made B&W "Poseidon Custom" (Poseidon barrel, bucking and nozzle). Never had any real problems and no breakage yet after 10's of thousands of BB's (knock on wood). The M9's had double-stack Hi-Capacity mags before the "Hi-Capa" "1911/2011" GBB! M9 "Hi-capa's First" carry 26+1 rounds, 2011's 30 rds. Big Deal.

So here is the problem, with the maddening "fashion" for the 2011 Hi-capa's, there doesn't seem to be any supply of "Upgrades" for the M9's. Unless you know of something I haven't found, SO PLEASE SHARE!

Keep in mind, the recent trend for mildly to radically "cut away" metal slides on 1911's and 2011's for lower moving mass was STARTED by the PT92/ M9 (and it's grandfather the Walther P-38

Oh, BTW .... I do also have 2 M2011 5.1 Hi-Capa's and 2 SIG Sauer SP2022's. But I prefer the M9's for Airsoft Games.

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I own the WE Tech M9A1 SOF with Mock Gemtech. It's not a bad replica but it's just not a great one. Out of the box it's not as good as any of the Hicapa or Glock replicas available. Heck, I'd actually rank my H8R above it. Plus, the limited upgrade options don't help. The best use I've got out of it is is as part of my Boondock Saints getup that my brother and I rock for Halloween themed Airsoft events\*.

\* Before y'all start typing please note that I typed "Airsoft events". I'm not bringing my replicas out for regular ol' Halloween.
 

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Owned a kjw m9 years back, was nicely put together but ended up trading it. Heavy/bulky without the capacity advantage of real steel. Grip angle never quite worked for me either. Weird safety :) Still think they look great, just don't carry or handle as well as an 1911 or g17 imo.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
@
I own the WE Tech M9A1 SOF with Mock Gemtech.

Plus, the limited upgrade options don't help. The best use I've got out of it is is as part of my Boondock Saints getup that my brother and I rock for Halloween themed Airsof
What you bought is pretty much what I moded my WE M9A3 to be like your SOF. Mine did not come with a functional suppressor, I built mine. I had intended to build up an all black one, but I got a sensational deal on that 'SEALS DE' color model, it's also the WE full-auto model. It goes thru the 26+ BB's in like 2-1/2seconds. It is exactly as our USAF Spl Ops operators had (PJ's, SO Fwd Air Ctrl, SO Recon, AF Commando's etc) and still do far as I know. As Helo pilots, weren't issued the silencers, tho we 'somehow' got them anyways.

That "limited upgrade options" availability is the problem, and it's the circular reason I think, that keeps the M9 or M92 or PB92 model from being pop trendy in Airsoft. No glam upgrades feeds the lower popularity, and low popularity feeds the lack of upgrades.

If I had the bucks, I'd design or spec some functional upgrades and find some factories in Taiwan to make them, and then import and dustrib them. I'd start with a cast Aluminum slide (I doubt CNC is cheaper) to replace the Zinc 'pot metal' stocker. A M9/ 92FS already has a lower moving mass slide, compared to a std 1911 or "2011", because of the way Beretta designed the P-92 slide, er copied the design of the Walter P-38 from the 1930's.

The M9 /92 already had a Hi-cap magazine before the 2011 Hi-capa's. There already are better than stock Nozzles and pistols for the M9 and so on. I just ordered some from 6mm.com in HK.

WE Tech seems the be the king of the Airsoft M9 models, maybe I need to ask my brother-in-law to go talk to their market dept, he lives near Taipei.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Owned a kjw m9 years back, was nicely put together but ended up trading it. Heavy/bulky without the capacity advantage of real steel. Grip angle never quite worked for me either. Weird safety :) Still think they look great, just don't carry or handle as well as an 1911 or g17 imo.
Heavy is better for handling recoil, I realize it's only Airsoft, thinking a real M9/92, but dont agree on bulky. Length of both M9 and M2011 pistol, and the width of the slide is the near same as a 1911/ "2011", and grip is the same thickness as a double stack 2011. The grip angle of the 1911A1 was and still is problematic, it was designed by Colt with the arched trigger spring housing to be shot for the hip, chest and sort of eye levels, not necessarily aimed with the shooters eye. The Browning Hi-power, P38, Beretta 92 and other Euro pistol were all designed to aimed from eye level and hence have that grip angle and shape. I believe nearly all Airsofters shoot that way because 'hits are what count.

I totally agree on the safety location, the Walther P38 and Beretta P92 as well as some other Euro pistols,h for some stupid reason have them on the slide, which also increases the moving mass. It's the reason my PPC and Run n Gun combat match pistols are Taurus PT 92's and not Beretta's, the safety is where it belongs on the Frame like an1911.

To me the grip angle and shape of Glocks is totally hosed, I hate them. I live in San Diego and regularly shoot matches at Camp Pendleton and Coronado Naval. The SOCOM Operators I met and know hated the Glocks and are so happy with their SIGs.
 

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'Glock ate the lunch m9 stole from Colt' is how I personally see it.

My opinion on grip angles is entirely the opposite: if I am in a situation where I need my secondary the absolute last thing I want is a gun that's inconvenient to 'point-shoot' from unconventional stances. Marksmanship aim breath-control etc is a discussion we can have while the other guy respawns :sneaky:

Bulky would seem appropriate - m92/98 is noted for having the widest grip and the largest grip circumference of the 'big three'. It's noticeable in the hand, especially when gloves are worn.
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Each has it's pros and cons, fanboys and haters - in the end, the best gun is the one you train with.
 

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Uhhh...a G17 Gen 3 that is 9x21?
 

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That Beretta is 9x21 also...

Must be EU pictures.
 

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Ah, didn't notice that... and to not change the subject of your thread, I wouldn't get any of the "big three"

I prefer something different (rather than something that's basically guaranteed to be seen at a field) but if that's what feels good in the hand and you can shoot things, get it.
 

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9x19 is a NATO round, some EU countries don't allow civilians to have NATO caliber guns so 9x21 was created as a legal work-around. Load is the same, overall length is the same, etc - the cartridge is just 2mm longer and the bullet is seated 2mm deeper.

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Load is a bit hotter...which I wouldn't mind in a 9mm.

Published data for 115gr is:

1190fps for 9x19mm
1300fps for 9x21mm
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
'Glock ate the lunch m9 stole from Colt' is how I personally see it.

My opinion on grip angles is entirely the opposite: if I am in a situation where I need my secondary the absolute last thing I want is a gun that's inconvenient to 'point-shoot' from unconventional stances. Marksmanship aim breath-control etc is a discussion we can have while the other guy respawns :sneaky:

Bulky would seem appropriate - m92/98 is noted for having the widest grip and the largest grip circumference of the 'big three'. It's noticeable in the hand, especially when gloves are worn.
View attachment 279948
View attachment 279946
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Each has it's pros and cons, fanboys and haters - in the end, the best gun is the one you train with.
But see there is a major flaw in your comparison, you are using a std 1911A1 to two wide magazine pistols! I know you're showing real firearms there and we 're talking Airsoft.

Anyways, look at the three pistols you're comparing for grip angles, therefore dictating holding position. The 1911A1 and airsoft's "2011" have the same grip, its "rake" is suited for one-handed NRA National Match style shooting because that's how it was designed for 1911 (1909), the arched spring housing was added for the A1 to make it slightly more comfortable for shooting from the chest or hip height. The grip of a 1911 is woefully small for big hand, ask any Marine or Army soldier from WWII and you'll hear that. The Beretta is a grip like a Browning Hi-power, meant to be shot from chest to eye level as they were/are taught in European armies, and now we teach in the US Military in recent decades, two hande combat style. The Glock doesn't know what it wants to be. Straight on the grips front strap and highly arched on the back strap like but even more than the Beretta, horrible to hold from either chest or eye level!

Look at them from the top too, the Glock is the widest ! Talk about big and bulky; both the M92 and the 1911, and a 2011, look under skinny in comparison. The grip width of a stacked magazine 2011 Hi-capa is no skinnier than a M92! They can't be, the two magazines are virtually identical. Put them on a table next to each other and compare!

Lastly, the Glocks are just ugly guns, they look like toys. Squirt guns are all plastic too (cheap shot, sorry). Not surprised, Austrian' design and make them. Glocks, hideous Steyr AUG and Vienna sausages, only three famed products from Austria, ;)

But, to each his own and what you feel most comfortable shooting easily. Just dont drop a Glock, it might break ;) (a slight jab)
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
9x19 is a NATO round, some EU countries don't allow civilians to have NATO caliber guns so 9x21 was created as a legal work-around. Load is the same, overall length is the same, etc - the cartridge is just 2mm longer and the bullet is seated 2mm deeper.

View attachment 279951
9mm "Luger" (9mm x 19) is, or was, probably still is, illegal to own a gun chambered in it in Mexico (possibly other Central American countries as well) because it is considered a Armed Forces and Law Enforcement only round. Hence the "Colt .38 ACP Super" and .45 ACP flourished for Decades there. If you have a hankering for a ".38 Super chambered 1911A1 Colt, best place to find one is in Mexico, if it isn't beaten to Sh**. Years ago I bought several in Mexico and re-imported them back into the USA for sale to mostly collectors and enthusiasts (I have an FFL). The .38 ACP can tbe shot in a .38 Super, but a .38 Super can't be shot in a Colt 1903 Pocket Hammer 38ACP for obviously (pressure) reasons.

.38 ACP Colt Super -
130 (8.42 g) FMJ1,215 ft/s (370 m/s)426 ft⋅lbf energy
115 (7.45 g) JHP1,450 ft/s (440 m/s)537 ft⋅lbf energy
Far better than the 9x19mm, and nearly on par with the .357 Magnum.

Wouldn't a Beretta M92 (M99 ?) in .38 ACP Super have been "Super"?? Yeah!

From my collection - Now talk about Grip Angle only conducive to eye-level shooting! The P-92 is far more raked than this. The "Grand-daddy" of the Colt 1911, John Browning's baby. I "roll my own" for shooting. For a 119 year old gun, the accuracy at 25 yrds is amazing considering there is no muzzle bushing like a 1911. The slide's muzzle is machined to snugly cradle the tapered barrel at its muzzle. The Barrel "toggles" at two points.

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Those are the 'big three' when it comes to service pistols, seems a reasonable comparison. M9 has the thickest slide of the three, stats are what they are.

As to how ugly hideous fragile and toy-like glocks are, how much you/others/everyone hates them...
NOTE !! : this is NOT a "Hate Thread" for Brands or Types. Lets be analytical
Anyway, I pref a Walther or more recently a Glock on an aftermarket frame that has a better grip angle - both for real steel and airsoft.
 

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If we're allowed to declare any airsoft favs outside the "big three", I'm a fan of the TM's HK line: MK23, USP and HK45. I want to like the Sig P320 by ProForce but two buddies have gone through several duds. They all seem to suffer from the same light striking issue.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
OK, more
I believe the aftermarket hicapa parts manufacturers came after the DIYers proved that there was a viable market for glam parts. I wonder if the platform itself is also part of the problem? The Hicapa is pretty easy to mod.
It is very true the 1911/A1 and 2011 are the easiest to completely replace parts, and now upgrade; John Browning and Colt had that very idea in mind for mostly Military use. But really the P92/M4 isn't hard either. I build lots of P92's and PT92's (Taurus) for IPCS, PPC and Run n Gun competition shooters as a gunsmith, and its not a big deal to tear one down 100%. It's a SOB for anyone without a tool to replace the hammer spring in any Colt or Clone 1911/A1. No such problemo with any 92.

If you could easily buy the parts to glam trick out a P92 / M9 like the real ones below, you don't think an equal amount of Airsoft Players would rather not be a "me too'er" with another copycat 2011 glitz pistol and take a P92/M9?

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Or a stock Beretta P92X with just a little "bling"
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Or maybe a Psychedelic P92 like this
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Personally, I'm not into "Bling" guns, one you'd expect a low-rider to want. I like mine mod'ded inside and a sleeper on the outside, like my OP pictures of my two M9's. In the real world, my Run n Gun P92 is a plain-Jane on the outsideexcept for the replaced rear combat sight, but the insides are nothing original. All three are mine for IPC, PPC and Run-n-Gun, the PT-92 is a 1988 model and VERY well used, my PT24/7 is beginning to really grow on me.
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Those are the 'big three' when it comes to service pistols, seems a reasonable comparison. M9 has the thickest slide of the three, stats are what they are.

As to how ugly hideous fragile and toy-like glocks are, how much you/others/everyone hates them...

Anyway, I pref a Walther or more recently a Glock on an aftermarket frame that has a better grip angle - both for real steel and airsoft.
No slam and no hate, buy you need glasses if you look at your own picture of the pistols from the top and say a M92 is wider than a Glock 17!! The Glock is a long shoebox on top of a frame! The 1911A1 stocker is the thinnest, then the M92 and last the Glock. Aiming a Glock is like aiming a rectangular box.

Look at that hideous exaggerated grip angle, compared to the more conventional P92X /M9A3. Everyone knows that the closer you hold a weapon when shooting, the human hand's anatomy dictates a straighter grip. Look at forearm accessory vertical grips for "M4" style rifles. 90 degree vertical grip is for a 10.5" CQB, whereas the convention is an angled grip for a 16" Carbine because that is how the hand's wrist joints work. The modern two-handed Combat style pistol stance has the pistol close to you, so a more vertical grip is the most comfortable for your hand's mechanics (Google it, hundreds of references). The extreme angle of the Glocks is fine for 1920's one-handed fully extended arm length shooting, but move it up close in a combat style, and you're aiming at the sky.

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I don't hate the Glocks, I just don't like them. The stupid and clumsy trigger safety makes a mess out of trigger feel for control, NO MANUAL Safety, no hammer. So much wrong with the design.
 
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